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Pope Francis has died

reuters.com

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Re: Pope Francis has died

#461

Post by mcphage »

usrusr wrote: post #141
vintagedave wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From his statement yesterday: > May the principle of humanity never fail to be the hallmark of our daily actions. In the face of the cruelty of conflicts that involve defenceless civilians and attack schools, hospitals and humanitarian workers, we cannot allow ourselves to forget that it is not targets that are struck, but persons, each possessed of a soul and human dignity. Yes. I agree with you and hope so too.

"Think of those souls!" reads to me cynically close to "don't think of those who ordered and executed those strikes". Almost like a deliberate distraction. When you turn forgiveness into a carte blanche for serial sin, you're doing Christianity wrong.

I think it’s more, he’s speaking to those who order and execute such strikes.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#463

Post by boroboro4 »

noisy_boy wrote: post #424
russfink wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“I like to think Hell is empty” might be a hopeful statement, as in he hopes nobody ever actually goes to Hell but that everyone, no matter how evil, repents in their dying moments and accepts the path of truth.

Or that it is empty for eternity for each and all who are there. Endless solitude would be a hellish punishment.

That’s how I’ve read it firstly. Hard to imagine worse hell than this to me.

And then I realized the real meaning of the quote. Made me cry a little.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#464

Post by wat10000 »

rglullis wrote: post #455
wat10000 wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the contrast? In both cases, there are good people who understand that their religion restricts them, not others, and there are bad people who think the government should enforce their religion.

What part of Islam actively promotes separation of church and state? What country with a majority Islamic population is currently going through a secularization process?

What part of Christianity actively promotes it? There’s that one line, which meaning is debated, in a book full of stories about religious governments.

In any case, I only care about the practicalities. In terms of what they try to achieve, there’s no real difference between the Christian and Muslim dominionists.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#465

Post by amanaplanacanal »

gambiting wrote: post #280
gortok wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed; and when the Second Vatican Council decided Mass should be said in the vernacular, the obligation of the Church was to follow. Instead, the conservatives of the church ('conservative' here means those that emphasize adhering to tradition and are adverse to change) created a rift by eschewing this change and even heightening the importance of the Latin Mass, creating the impression that a mass spoken in the lo…

There are still groups(at least I'm aware of them in Poland, I've met people who are part of them) who believe exactly this, that the second Vatican Sobor was a mistake and the "real" mass is only the one conducted in Latin.

It seems unlikely that Jesus spoke Latin at the last supper.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#466

Post by yoyohello13 »

CKMo wrote: post #45

I genuinely liked him, even as an atheist. He seemed to be trying his best to make the world a better place and I can't fault him for that.

He is one of the few religious leaders who actually gave me a positive view of religion. He seemed like a really great human.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#467

Post by rawgabbit »

swat535 wrote: post #299

Pope Francis caused quite a bit of controversy among Catholics. From his crackdown on the TLM (Traditional Latin Mass) to his often unscripted, pastoral tone on issues like sexuality, economics, and interfaith dialogue, he unsettled many and yet drew others closer to the Church. With his passing, we’re left to process a papacy that disrupted in the deepest sense of the word. As a Catholic, I often found myself both i…

My favorite quote was when he talked about families in one of his many speeches.

"In families, there are difficulties. In families, we argue; in families, sometimes the plates fly...In families, there are difficulties, but these difficulties are overcome with love. Hate doesn’t overcome any difficulty."

Re: Pope Francis has died

#468

Post by kelnos »

hersko wrote: post #399
tetris11 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I express my closeness to the sufferings of Christians in Palestine and Israel, and to all the Israeli people and the Palestinian people. The growing climate of anti-Semitism throughout the world is worrisome. Yet at the same time, I think of the people of Gaza, and its Christian community in particular, where the terrible conflict continues to cause death and destruction and to create a dramatic and deplorable hum…

Tangentially related: why do so many people call for a ceasefire, when a ceasefire is generally temporary. It wouldn't resolve any of the underlying reasons for the war. He should be calling for surrender.

Who should surrender, though? At this point in time, if Hamas were to surrender, the Israeli occupation of Gaza would just get worse. That wouldn't be peace, or justice, for people of Gaza. I certainly don't support what Hamas has done, but Israeli rule will probably be pretty brutal for Palestinians.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#469

Post by Capricorn2481 »

southernplaces7 wrote: post #381
BrandoElFollito wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> after all even a firm atheist can't be absolutely sure there is no genuine God Why so? There is no reason for one to exist so not having one is the obvious case. We could of course assume anything, that we are av stylization, that the world is a large ice cream, that what we see is not the reality, whatever If we go for that, sure, we cannot be sure of anything. But we then must also believe that we may live in a l…

>There is no reason for one to exist so not having one is the obvious case. It's a usable supposition, sure, and I agree that being asked to prove a negative is silly, but you can't actually be sure that one doesn't exist. It's not the obvious case at all, it's not even all that obvious as a supposition. What's more, superficially at least, it makes more sense to believe in a supreme, essentially divine creator than…

> What's more, superficially at least, it makes more sense to believe in a supreme, essentially divine creator than it does to believe visibly enormous complexity deriving from a mostly unknown nothing.

We would come from nothing in the same way God came from nothing. There's little reason to conclude the universe was ever non-existent.

> Though, the idea of being the creations of a tremendously powerful and conscious being that created a universe hospitable to our use and for our potential given by all our evident cognitive and material tools seems to me a lot more plausible than being subject to an accidental existence in a gargantuan ice cream environment.

I actually thought you were going to say the first clause is less probable than whatever the second upcoming clause would be, because it sounds so improbably specific and human-crafted.

I think the belief that we were gifted our cognitive superiority (if that even is something unique to us in the history of the universe) by a divine entity is not meant to be an explanation of where our cognition comes from, but a method of assuaging our guilt. Because if God gave us the tools to debase, kill, maim, and roast ourselves on this rock, then surely it is meant to be, and will add up to something meaningful.

In fact, it's much more likely giving monkeys the ability to talk was an act of The Devil, not God.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#470

Post by lukan »

ZeroClickOk wrote: post #394
numbers_guy wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop talking in such general terms. No Catholics I know have been shaken by anything Pope Francis did. I have been educated in a Catholic school, which also served as a Catholic seminary, and I never heard Pope Francis say anything that was not in line with the catechism that we were taught back then.

According to the rules in the first post, I cannot talk about politics in this thread, but the summary is, the political inclinations that he displayed were "uncomfortable".

You can, but is only encouraged if it helps make the topic more deep and interesting.
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