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How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

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Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#461

Post by hilbert42 »

mmooss wrote: post #142

Here's an easy, if not always precise way to remember: * Hyphens connect things, such as compound words: double-decker , cut-and-dried , 212-555-5555 . * EN dashes make a range between things: Boston–San Francisco flight, 10–20 years: both connect not only the endpoints, but define that all the space between is included. (Compare the last usage with the phone number example under Hyphens.) * EM dashes break things, s…

"There's also the figure dash…"

Re last paragraph: dashes, etc. are confusing for perhaps most of us who aren't, say, typesetters, myself included. I use EM dashes a lot usually without a space between words and sometimes with spaces when I think the typography calls for it—or for extra emphasis.

Essentially, most of us guess the rules and often this doesn't matter much but it can in certain circumstances.

For example, in say machine conversion/transliteration. The ASCII dash is often used as a substitute for Unicode minus sign because it's easy to select [it's my usual practice], and anyway many don't know there is an actual difference. Whilst a human will usually know the difference by its use or context a machine may take the literal interpretation which could lead to say a numerical calculation error.

This problem has annoyed me for a long while. Why is it that wordprocessors and editors do not highlight these characters and query whether the usage is correct? Surely this ought not to be that difficult.

Another example is Roman numerals. The average person will enter say an uppercase 'I' for the Roman numeral one. Here's a typical example which is incorrect:

WWII

Here I entered the normal ASCII 'I' because it was too involved to find the correct Unicode character for Roman numeral one.

I'd like to know what others who are in typography, machine learning etc. think about this, and why WP programs and editors don't have simple ergonomics that allow for easy selection of the correct character.

† On a related matter, you'll note I've used single quotes whereas mmooss uses double quotes. This tell me that mmooss is likely in the US whereas I'm not. Again, this is not really a major problem for humans but it can be in transliteration, etc. Also, it's unclear (at least to me) what the default is for quoting quotes, i.e.: "" versus "' (right, I've refrained from using triple quotes).

Again, this seems country specific with I believe the US favoring double followed by single. Even when these rules are defined do people strictly adhere to them?

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#462

Post by hilbert42 »

rmunn wrote: post #340
krick wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually only your post that made me realize people don't normally put spaces around em dash. In French, Russian and a bunch of other languages proper typesetting is to use em dash as a standard dash character, and you always put spaces around them. So I did it in English as well, for many years now. (I also now looked up and found out that in Spanish, apparently, you are supposed to put space only on one side o…

I also put spaces around em dashes. It looks wrong—subtly wrong—to me to have the words glued together around the dash. It looks right — completely right — to me to have the dash standing on its own, as if it was a word in its own right.

I've wondered about this for similar reasons. I usually omit the spaces but as I said in an earlier post I'll sometimes include them when I think the typography calls for it or when I want to add extra emphasis.

I've come to the conclusion it boils down to which style manual one follows. I've taken a careful look at numbers of high-end books which no doubt have been carefully typeset and I've found EM dashes with and without spaces.

It seems there is no definitive rule but I might be wrong.

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#463

Post by akho »

lxgr wrote: post #391
akho wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You always want a non-breaking space before a dash.

How so? Wouldn't this prevent line breaks around dashes bracketing parenthetical statements? That's the opposite of what I want!

Line starting with a dash can be mistaken for dialogue or dashed list, which is not what you want.

In any case: non-breaking space (or otherwise suppressed linebreak, if you don’t use a space) is the rule.

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#464

Post by hilbert42 »

grey413 wrote: post #295
darajava wrote: post #149

Most people don't use the em dash. It's too hard to type and looks too similar to a hyphen. As a result, a hallmark of GPT-generated text is its (over)using of the em dash--I have stopped using it for this reason an just use two hyphens now instead.

Most people don't use em dashes... apart from professional and skilled writers, who use them regularly. It's a bit of a problem that the same character is both a mark of LLMs and skilled writing.

Not necessarily, I don't consider myself a skilled writer by any means but I use em dashes a great deal.

Em dashes allow me to get multiple ideas into a sentence with comparatve ease and have it still make sense. Otherwise I'd have to add additional sentences to a paragraph which itself has issues. With a longer paragraph one has to worry about its readability and comprehensibility, and that means having to restructure it—remove redundancies, etc.—and that takes time.

Good writers can think ahead and do all that restructuring in their heads. When writing about an idea, concept or logical unit thereof they'll write out short, coherent and readable text all in one go, and it will make sense. I only wish I could do that.

As I see it, em dashes are more a crux for bad writers like me (they allow our text to be at least comprehensible).

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#465

Post by hilbert42 »

darajava wrote: post #314
grey413 wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people don't use em dashes... apart from professional and skilled writers, who use them regularly. It's a bit of a problem that the same character is both a mark of LLMs and skilled writing.

Yes, true! I was tired when I clumsily made that point above (I am not a skilled writer). I learned how to use the em dash properly about 6 months before the release of ChatGPT and then when it was released I realized that it used them all the time . So, to convince people that I both know basic grammar and I am human I started to use "--" instead of "—".

BTW, the double dash "--" was a common substitute for a em dash in the ASCII days before Unicode.

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#466

Post by gabeidx »

lioeters wrote: post #116
Starlevel004 wrote: post #91

I refuse to care about this. A single dash is all I will ever use. I see no possible reason to use the other two.

That's the comment I was looking for to rally behind. I use the same character `-` for all purposes: minus, hyphen, em/en dash. It's easy to type and it makes practically no difference in meaning or legibility. I refuse to waste my time differentiating between multiple variations of a short horizontal line with a few pixels more or less. Ain't nobody got time for that.

By the same logic, why bother with capital letters then?

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#467

Post by lioeters »

gabeidx wrote: post #466
lioeters wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the comment I was looking for to rally behind. I use the same character `-` for all purposes: minus, hyphen, em/en dash. It's easy to type and it makes practically no difference in meaning or legibility. I refuse to waste my time differentiating between multiple variations of a short horizontal line with a few pixels more or less. Ain't nobody got time for that.

By the same logic, why bother with capital letters then?

Legibility. Same with punctuation marks.

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#468

Post by phlakaton »

lostlogin wrote: post #452
phlakaton wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emily Dickinson wept—

I had a quick search, attempting to find a great author who hated em dashes and preferred the vastly superior en dash. I found nothing. This list of authors punctuation quirks is interesting though. https://lithub.com/the-punctuation-marks-loved-and-hated-by-...

You want Robert Bringhurst, poet and typographic nerd. He gives them special withering attention in his Elements of Typographic Style. I think he referred to them as Victorian excrescences?

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#469

Post by nosrepa »

handoflixue wrote: post #226
milesrout wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i refuse to care about this lowercase letters are all i will ever use i see no possible reason to use the other symbols Suit yourself, but if you refuse to learn basic grammar you will be treated like you are stupid and uneducated. Like it or not, presentation matters. Getting the basics right, including things like spelling, grammar, etc, shows a basic attention to detail without which your services will likely do m…

> etc, actually it's "etc." (I wouldn't usually be a pedant, but if you think the difference between "--" and "—" matters, you should probably try to get the basics right too.)

I prefer &c

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#470

Post by im3w1l »

bangaladore wrote: post #26

Somewhat off topic, however, I'm thoroughly convinced that there is a very high probability something is AI generated when I see Em dashes. Anyone else noticing this? ChatGPT for example almost always uses them. I'm sure they are more common in academic writing, but its now super common on boards like Reddit.

I saw this comment a day ago but it only clicked today. The way we tell it's AI is the use of too formal grammar. I think that means they now pass the Turing test. Or at most a hair's breadth from passing.
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