Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Burnout Machine

unionize.fyi

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

461–470 of 695 posts

Re: The Burnout Machine

#461

Post by altacc »

roncesvalles wrote: post #279
stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

In my experience as a software engineer rounding out 6 years now, what I have observed in myself and others is that the work pressure that leads to burnout in SWEs is largely self-imposed. I have some conjectures as to why that may be: 1. High variability of pay, not only between companies but within companies. As a SWE your total compensation can be expected to double every two promotions, and promotions can be pret…

> the work pressure that leads to burnout in SWEs is largely self-imposed

Nothing happens in a vacuum and this "self-imposed" work pressure often happens within the a company culture that is either intentionally or accidentally highly demanding of individuals. The "self-imposed" is a false front for enforced expectations from colleagues, managers and clients.

We're all in unique situations and you can say if you don't like it then don't work there. However the hustle and start up cultures are viral and spread throughout the industry. Just look at all the talk of Elon Musk & his Twitter and Doge employees working 100 hours weeks and sleeping at the office. Regardless of politics, there are many people who talk about this insane, unhealthy and inefficient level of work as a good and worthy thing. It's the Puritan work ethic myth. In reality the majority of the benefit of this work does not go to the individual doing the work, instead they pay a heavy cost with their quality of life.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#463

Post by tim333 »

mojomark wrote: post #399
mojomark wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an interesting take, but I have a slightly different take. My ding dong company pays everyone including myself, salaries that are way too high. They gave ne a 30% raise I didn't even ask for or expect. We get a contract to do X, which say should take a team of 5 folks. However, we can only staff the contract with 3 folks because our salaries are too high. Now, we're all working 80hr weeks and stressed to the…

Really weird that my comment was downvoted. No idea why. I guess HN just isn't for me after 10 years. Peace out.

People do stuff like skim, see 'decrease salaries' and click down without really thinking or even reading it all. It can be kinda random and not worth worrying about.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#464

Post by ayewo »

ActorNightly wrote: post #166
legitster wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels it lacks perspective with virtually any other occupations. On one hand, misery and happiness are relative. On the other hand, try telling a construction worker how hard our lives are sitting in chairs clicking buttons. My dad used to have to do things like hot tar roofing to pay the bills. So I still consider it a blessing to get to work in software. I thi…

>I think one thing that needs to be understood better is the concept of "burnout". I can explain it pretty well. You can classify pretty much all jobs into 2 categories - map lookups and reasoning. A map lookup job is something where you learn to associate a specific problem with a solution. Most jobs are like this. You go work in construction, its pretty much map lookup - supervisor tells you to go prep the concrete…

I’ve heard a similar jobs classification but in 3 buckets:

1. builders (maps to reasoning)

2. fixers

3. maintainers (maps to map lookups)

Companies are often a mixture of these 3 classifications. How they skew often depends on maturity (startup vs enterprise).

Re: The Burnout Machine

#465

Post by tim333 »

Sir_Twist wrote: post #314
lr4444lr wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a fairly progressive news outlet attracting staff with certain sensibilties in the NYC area and selling views to people who are the same, the NYTimes board of directors has a vested PR interest in tolerating unions with the large amounts money they have to pay for the privilege. I'm not convinced the company is better served by unionized employees over the rest of the tech scene, which has to innovate to stay solv…

Forgive me if this is an overly-simplistic question – I'm a student, so there is a lot I don't know and this seems to be a complex topic, but I ask this in good faith: if the people that are members of the union are happy with it, what negative outcome is produced so as to make the union a bad solution? From what I understand, the basic purpose of a union is to give its members more collective negotiating power with…

A general problem is it can make the industries less competitive and the companies struggle as work moves elsewhere. See the history of Detroit for example.

A lot depends on the details.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#466

Post by Aeolun »

sensanaty wrote: post #393
Aeolun wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's like devs are allergic to any semblance of labor solidarity. I think that comes from seeing our field filled with people only in it for the money, doing the bare minimum that’ll keep them employed.

Why does that bother you though? I couldn't care less about how others work as long as they're not actively detrimental to everyone else. Hell, the managerial and C-suites are the ones that impact people the most negatively most of the time, yet we're complaining about someone who's got actual bills to pay for doing their job and not killing themselves over it. The bare minimum is what everyone should be doing, becau…

> Why does that bother you though?

It leads to scrum culture, because you need accountability for the people that aren’t self-motivated enough to proceed with work without extrinsic motivation (their ideal situation is nothing to do but still get paid).

That’s my theory anyway. Previously the assumption seems to have been that the nerd was gonna nerd, and the only thing you sometimes needed to do was reign them in.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#467

Post by Aeolun »

actionfromafar wrote: post #327
Aeolun wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much experience with contract killers do you have to make that assessment?

Most "contract killers" aren't the super pro movie kind. (Though I'm sure they exist.) Most are young guys, or children even, doing sloppy hit-n-runs to climb some gang hierarchy for really not a lot of money.

I agree with the theory, but have zero facts to back them up.

I’d also argue that we shouldn’t call “I’ll give you $50 coke money if you off that guy” should be called “contract killing”.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#468

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

echelon wrote: post #221
jacobgkau wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My initial reaction to this whole thing was the same as yours (not that I have any love lost for academics). Software engineers do basically no physical labor and usually get paid better than many people who physically work way harder. On the whole, software engineers are not "the victim," as you said. However, your examples made me think. > In other places, you can have a typical 40h/week job at a salary way better…

> I also think using the "it could be worse" excuse to avoid working for better conditions that are totally feasible isn't a great thing to do. Unions fuck up the incentives. Tenured positions are coveted and come with privileges that make the job easier and the position more cushy. New hires want those perks and will rest once they attain them. This is the opposite of what you want in a workforce: you want the top 5…

Overseas to countries with better labour laws? Like, it's cheaper to hire engineers in Germany but it's much harder to fire them.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#469

Post by saagarjha »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #438
Buttons840 wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having healthcare tied to employment is antithetical to the most basic principles of our economy: people should be able to freely and easily change jobs and/or pause employment--that is the "free" in free market.

> pause employment What does this mean?

Take a break from work?

Re: The Burnout Machine

#470

Post by saagarjha »

echelon wrote: post #424
DrillShopper wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you got a 10 figure exit then you're not working class.

I'm such a scatter brained dumbass sometimes. I meant "near 8 figures". I'm nowhere near "three commas" of wealth. I was emotionally responding to these pro-union comments between work and can't simple math. I still can't fathom the headspace of people wanting to do less and be entitled to more while the rest of the world is catching up and offering a better value. The lasier we get, the less likely we'll be picked t…

I support this because precisely because it is not everyone's hobby, even if it is mine. I have more than enough money. Some people do not. And I assure you it's not because they are lazier or dumber than I am.
Post reply on HN