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Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

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Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#461

Post by neilv »

cue_the_strings wrote: post #440
neilv wrote: post #16

I wonder how the engineers and scientists who contributed to that less-lethal weapon feel about it.

I will always have more respect for prostitutes, pimps, drug dealers and thieves than people working in "defense". Even an exceptionally violent and prolific gangster could never come close to contributing to the suffering of as many people as your regular MIC employee, no matter where they're employed. If I were to try to imagine how I could realistically inflict the most suffering on the world, the clear answer wou…

That's a very broad brush. You could use a roller, with handles on both ends for stability, if your surface is so uniformly flat.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#462

Post by lurk2 »

_heimdall wrote: post #412
lurk2 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A party which is being attacked by riot control agents may think it is being attacked by deadly chemical weapons and resort to the use of chemical weapons. It is this danger of escalation that States sought to avert by agreeing to prohibit the use of riot control agents as a method of warfare in armed conflict. The implication of the statement “These are weapons that would violate the Geneva convention, but we're o…

Is your argument, or would you agree with governments making the argument, that the use of force should be acceptable as long as you/they know its asymmetric?

I made no such argument. My argument is that the claim

> These are weapons that would violate the Geneva convention, but we're okay with them to disperse a crowd.

is misleading because it implies that riot agents are comparable to chemical weapons. Riot agents are intended to disperse crowds while keeping casualties to a minimum. Chemical weapons are intended to kill people.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#463

Post by kortilla »

mrob wrote: post #209
kortilla wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LRADs are not designed to cause permanent damage. They are explicitly designed under the intention of being a way to disperse a crowd without long term harm. There hasn’t been much research on long term health impacts, but it’s not a tool to maim people. https://phr.org/our-work/resources/health-impacts-of-crowd-c...

They are designed to produce sound pressure levels that cause permanent hearing damage from short exposure, which makes them maiming weapons. There is no safe way to use an LRAD. Anybody who uses an LRAD is evil. Stop making excuses for despicable behavior. Deliberately causing hearing damage is no better than smashing people's fingers with hammers.

They are not designed to cause hearing damage and the link I posted saying as much is a from a physicians org for human rights.

Speaking in hyperbole is counter productive to thoughtful discussion

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#464

Post by _DeadFred_ »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #56
camilo2025 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are aware that these LRAD systems have been used against US citizens, aren't you?

Police also regularly use tear gas against US citizens. These are weapons that would violate the Geneva convention, but we're okay with them to disperse a crowd.

24/7 lighting of prisoners so they can't sleep is torture, unless it's the American police and they need to keep the lights on for 'safety'.

Electro shock torture is illegal... unless it's the cops using a taser to get a desired behavior/compliance.

Police use > legally defined torture/war crimes.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#465

Post by kortilla »

consteval wrote: post #437
kortilla wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LRADs are not designed to cause permanent damage. They are explicitly designed under the intention of being a way to disperse a crowd without long term harm. There hasn’t been much research on long term health impacts, but it’s not a tool to maim people. https://phr.org/our-work/resources/health-impacts-of-crowd-c...

I don’t think you need to be a rocket scientist to realize loud noise = hearing loss. Just intuitively, I know many people with degraded hearing from concerts. And that hearing is gone, that’s how hearing loss works. I think the people who designed these weapons aren’t anywhere close to stupid enough to think these won’t cause long term damage. Which means that the only explanation is they INTEND for them to cause lo…

Check out the link I posted. It’s from a physicians group focused on human rights.

> I don’t think you need to be a rocket scientist to realize loud noise = hearing loss.

Being a doctor and understanding that the levels people are exposed are not maiming if the thing is used “by design” should carry some significant weight in how you think about this.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#466

Post by mrob »

kortilla wrote: post #463
mrob wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are designed to produce sound pressure levels that cause permanent hearing damage from short exposure, which makes them maiming weapons. There is no safe way to use an LRAD. Anybody who uses an LRAD is evil. Stop making excuses for despicable behavior. Deliberately causing hearing damage is no better than smashing people's fingers with hammers.

They are not designed to cause hearing damage and the link I posted saying as much is a from a physicians org for human rights. Speaking in hyperbole is counter productive to thoughtful discussion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_pressure#Examples

Threshold of pain: 120-140 dB(SPL)

Risk of instantaneous noise-induced hearing loss: 120dB(SPL)

A sonic weapon must cause pain to be effective. Any sound that reliably causes pain is capable of causing instant hearing damage. Therefore any sonic weapon is necessarily a maiming weapon and is designed as such. There is no hyperbole.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#467

Post by grujicd »

user_7832 wrote: post #449
grujicd wrote: post #100

Close friend who was on the spot described it as car or plane running towards you, you don't only hear it, you also feel vibrations in the body creating panic and fear. All demonstrations of LRAD I heard on youtube were with high pitched sound, not a "whoosh" as witnesses experienced last night in Belgrade. Can these devices play any kind of sound? What is described by victims, and what can be heard on some recording…

I’m moderately suspicious of the details some people/articles say. Long story short, there’s 1-4khz audio weapons (LRAD), and microwave/heat based ADS. It appears that both of these were used, a Reddit army vet commented about how that’s apparently the “protocol” as the ADS is strong enough to pick off the last stragglers. I’m ever so slightly suspicious of the “low frequency sound weapon” aspect because that typical…

Earshot NGO analyzed recorded sounds and found 4 of these videos "consistent with Vortex Ring Gun or Vortex Cannon":

https://x.com/earshot_ngo/status/1901661518153781534

Note that many videos didn't record the sound if the phone was further away from that center line.

This is the recording which perhaps captured sound the best:

https://x.com/stonexman/status/1901034916961309148

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#468

Post by propagandist »

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #193
tonyhart7 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so you saying if there are violence or sabotage, you let these people do it??? how can that be better

They're suggesting that the point of an authority using this weapon on a mass of people may be to cause those people to become violent so that the authority can use the subsequent fear to justify further abuses. Which I think is likely, but also a bad decision. Generally speaking, the job of a legitimate government is to make violent protest unnecessary. So depending on the situation, the best action may indeed be to…

That's exactly it. Thank you.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#469

Post by propagandist »

tonyhart7 wrote: post #235
__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're suggesting that the point of an authority using this weapon on a mass of people may be to cause those people to become violent so that the authority can use the subsequent fear to justify further abuses. Which I think is likely, but also a bad decision. Generally speaking, the job of a legitimate government is to make violent protest unnecessary. So depending on the situation, the best action may indeed be to…

Yeah but the problem is with mass movement people like this, there are good chance people that can take advantage of these protest (looting,rob etc) the point of these weapon is not "defeat" but mostly to crowd control right because you cant rule out if there is no crime even in peaceful protest, both things can be true at the same time also if such weapon is not permanently injure or harm people, I can see why this…

That's very charitable to those in power. Believe me when I tell you most don't give two hoots about looting and vandalism.

You don't break up a gathering because there's the possibility of crimes occurring unless you live in an authoritarian society.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#470

Post by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK »

jq-r wrote: post #452
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to encrypt the backups (don't use g$$gle or apple clouds, of course).

That well might be true. But what about the people upu communicate with? They have messages from you, and probably don't have airgapped backups. So your ironclad backups don't matter much.

What I like in Telegram (though I don't use it), you can force delete messages on your interlocutor's device, at any time.
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