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America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

cnn.com

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Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#461

Post by Panzer04 »

8note wrote: post #424
tw04 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you have listed above could be solved with money. Only 10% of applicants are physically and mentally qualified? Sounds like you need more applicants? Want to attract more applicants? Offer more compensation. The training and onboarding is incredibly long? Sounds like a doctor? Do you know why people go through the pain of becoming a doctor? Because they make a lot of money when they get through the other s…

i dont think offering more compensation solves the problem. the people you might want mignt 1. always have a better option elsewhere and if your raise the offer, competitors will offer something even higher instead, beyond the pittances the government is willing to spend 2. never be willing to take on the job as specified - huge responsibility and risk of killing people, with long hours and no recognition 3. never fi…

Of course it solves the problem. People will prevaricate and blow a ton of money in so many ways before they acknowledge the easiest fix.

The extra expenses will also encourage actual fixes to the system like better automation or whatever to reduce costs.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#462

Post by Panzer04 »

boredatoms wrote: post #418
insom wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The commenter did say up to 3x, so up to ~730K higher than that job in a major city (with possibly better facilities but who knows)

It sounds like it needs to be higher than 3x then

Probably one of those things were the money ceases to be a concern when the rate is already high enough at nicer locations.

Doesn't mean you can't keep upping the rate and getting one anyway, but probably it becomes more cost effective to literally ship the rural patients instead of the doctor.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#464

Post by ceedan »

RandomBacon wrote: post #97
ceedan wrote: post #43

Honestly surprised that airlines don’t have options to tip the air traffic control crew, with how tipping culture is these days

I don't think we're allowed to take bribes. We are not even supposed to own stocks in any of the airline companies. I give everyone "direct" equally, to the best of my ability barring any restrictions.

I would have expected by now that tipping air traffic control would have been seen as a way to boost wages, and create more interest for the job… but I could see how travelers of different airlines might tip more/less which could influence behavior

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#465

Post by kristjansson »

fastball wrote: post #456
kristjansson wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The relevant question is whether this issue affected the absolute number of filled ATC positions, not just who got them. Though the facts on the latter are Not Great, and nuance is not exactly abundant right now.

Both of those questions are relevant.

How is the composition of the ATC workforce independently relevant, except as mediated through staffing levels?

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#466

Post by AnthonyMouse »

tzs wrote: post #333
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could this be anything to do with Reagan firing them? The Reagan thing was 1981. Air traffic controllers have a mandatory retirement age of 56. Anyone under the age of 56 in 2025 would have been under the age of 12 in 1981.

> How could this be anything to do with Reagan firing them? Echoes. The fired workers were replaced as rapidly as possible. That would result in massive change in the age distribution of controllers. It takes a few years to train a new controller so lets assume the youngest new hires were 22. New controllers have to be 31 and under. Let's take the best case and assume all the new controllers are 22 through 31 and are…

That theory assumes you can train >10,000 new air traffic controllers all at once in 1982 but then can't train their replacements over a period of ten years as they retire.

For that to be the case there would have to be some more proximate problem compromising the ability to replace air traffic controllers at the rate it was possible to in the 1980s. Like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42939941

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#467

Post by smcin »

RandomBacon wrote: post #438
smcin wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much advance notice do you get of overtime requirement? Can you plan a week or month ahead? Do you have to cancel days off or vacations? (How much of those stats are available by FOIA, for each ATC location? Also, how can we see how many hires wash out/quit by year of experience, or pay grade?) > At my first facility, to live within 45 minutes of work, my whole paycheck went to rent... That's because your federal…

I'm on the "No" list for overtime, so I don't normally get scheduled it, but when I do, it's about two or three weeks in advance. People on the "Yes" list get the scheduled overtime when the schedule comes out about 5 or 6 weeks in advance. By law we cannot work more than 10 hour days, 6 days in a row. There are some facilities where controllers are all being scheduled to that limit. I do often get calls on my days o…

> on a particular day I won't know if my shift starts at noon or 3pm until the schedule is posted.

Why? What's the rationale to that? Presumably that doesn't work if you have small kids or dependents, or a commute with a bad rush-hour.

What I'm trying to get at is now that the situation at ATC has the full attention of the public, in a bipartisan way, time to tell us if you could wave a magic wand at the whole setup, what things would you improve?

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#468

Post by ajbourg »

hattmall wrote: post #425
wqaatwt wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They have an abundance of doctors and engineers They are usually paid several times less than people doing the same jobs in US.

I don't really see why that would be a problem.

It's fine if you're starting from nothing.

But we wouldn't be starting from nothing. There's a large group of people who would lose income and who will lobby against that.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#469

Post by vdqtp3 »

chii wrote: post #370
0xB31B1B wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why don't other highly developed countries have the same issues finding employees?" Baumol effects. Our economy is incredible, extremely high productivity along with full employment. Its why we have ordering kiosks at fast food restaurants, pay 225k for bucee's managers and 20 dollars/hour to flip burgers at fast food restaurants. ATC is a low productivity growth job, technology hasn't increased the number of planes…

> technology hasn't increased the number of planes or amount of airspace one ATC can manage which should put pressure on the entity managing the ATC to increase an ATC's productivity via tech. And yet this hasn't happened. So why is that? I say at a guess, that capitalism isn't working for the entity that manages ATC, because that entity is immune to the pressures of capitalism - ala, federal gov't doesn't care that…

You can look at contract towers to see how private entities handle ATC duties. They under-staff to the point that single controllers are handling the entire airspace without so much as coverage for the bathroom sometimes for the full length of their shift. Service is significantly worse in all aspects - the controllers aren't as well trained, they can't handle as much traffic as safely, and they're both less pleasant and less clear on the radio (phraseology, etc - not voice clarity)

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#470

Post by stevage »

Aurornis wrote: post #453
stevage wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And not allowing people to take anxiety meds is nuts. Some of those meds seem perfect for this job, putting you in a very mellow, but focused state.

> Some of those meds seem perfect for this job, putting you in a very mellow, but focused state. Many drugs, especially some anxiety medications, produce false feelings of sobriety. I can’t believe I have to write this, but: Feeling mellow and focused from drugs does not mean you’re okay to perform well at mentally demanding or safety-critical tasks like driving or directing air traffic.

These hypotheses seem eminently testable. Give people (with and without underlying conditions) these drugs, test their performance. Rather than simply prohibiting entire categories of drugs.
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