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California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

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Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#461

Post by sangnoir »

roenxi wrote: post #452
sangnoir wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are so many confounding factors are at play that you're ignoring and attributing the achievement to high IQ (and that only). The Guinea Worm is on the verge if eradication, mostly on the back of the multi-decade efforts of Jimmy Carter. I don't what his IQ is, but I'll assume it's below 140 and above whatever is the ballpark minimum required to enroll as a Navy Nuke. I posit that you don't need to be a genius t…

You're speculating that a US president has a relatively average intelligence - why are you assuming that? The top job in a democracy is generally one of the most competitive positions in the world and US presidents are typically exceptional in multiple different ways. It'd be really surprising to have a US president with an IQ below something like 120 and I'd personally be assuming >140 for the average. As far as I c…

> You're speculating that a US president has a relatively average intelligence - why are you assuming that

I am not assuming that: any range that has studying nuclear engineering as its floor is above average intelligence. I thought it was self-evident, but apparently not - perhaps not many people know what a "Navy Nuke officer" is. To be more explicit the range is between above average intelligence and "genius". Regardless, I will never be convinced that people with relatively average intelligence are precluded from greatness; so excuse my scepticism when fellow nerds pat themselves on the back for being the engine of the world without pointing at any research that bears this idea out.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#462

Post by rahimnathwani »

atmavatar wrote: post #229
Animats wrote: post #191

> But others said the admissions exam and additional application requirements are inherently unfair to students of color who face socioeconomic disadvantages. Elaine Waldman, whose daughter is enrolled in Reed’s IHP, said the test is “elitist and exclusionary,” and hoped dropping it would improve the diversity of the program. Recognizing gifted students is inherently discriminatory. Because these are the numbers: Ave…

It's worth pointing out that childhood malnutrition has a significant negative impact on IQ that persists into adulthood. See: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3796166/ Black children are far more likely to live in poverty than the other three groups presented in the parent comment. I'm really curious what the numbers would be were that not the case. I also wonder how much the rise in black IQ over the decade…

For 2023-2024, among SFUSD students who are 'Economically Disadvantaged':

70% of Asian 3rd graders met or exceeded state standards for math.

18% of Black or African American 3rd graders met or exceeded state standards for math.

The difference is similar for all grade levels (3 to 11) and for all years for which I've seen the data.

California provides lunch for all children who attend public schools. SFUSD gives first choice of school to those who live in the very poorest areas of the city.

https://caaspp-elpac.ets.org/caaspp/ViewReportSB?ps=true&lst...

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#463

Post by Auracle »

Spoom wrote: post #143
jltsiren wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have much experience with how education works in California, or in the US in general. But there is one universal issue with special programs for gifted kids: parents. It's hard to distinguish gifted kids from average kids with ambitious parents. If you let ambitious parents push their kids to programs they are not qualified for, they can easily ruin the programs for the actual gifted kids. Gifted programs wor…

In Ontario, access to these programs was gated by an IQ test given to all students based on the outcome of a standardized test (this was ~30 years ago, no idea what they do today). I'm not saying it was perfectly objective or equitable but it was a start at trying to make it objective. Are programs not doing something similar in California or elsewhere in the US?

It’s literally illegal to give students IQ tests in California.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#464

Post by hirvi74 »

sangnoir wrote: post #343
DiggyJohnson wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there is a high correlation between intelligence (no matter how you measure it throughout childhood) and achievement in adulthood. A huge, massive difference. Obviously there are exceptions. Somebody seeming like a bad student is not one. Do you really need a citation for that?

My question was specifically about the outliers: has any research been done if outlying achievements go hand in hand with outlier IQs? Without any research or evidence, it's an area prone to a Just World fallacy where extraordinary achievements "ought" to be achieved by extraordinary talent. Rephrasing my doubts in perhaps an oversimplified manner: given the correlation you mentioned: is it reasonable to expect the t…

So, the closest that I am aware of is the multi-decade study conducted by, the psychologist and intelligence researcher, Lewis Terman. The study was originally called, "Genetic Studies of Genius."

You can read about it here:

https://gwern.net/doc/iq/high/2018-kell.pdf

This one is somewhat tangental, but I find, "The Munich Model of Giftedness Designed to Identify and Promote Gifted Students" to be an interesting read too.

https://gwern.net/doc/iq/high/munich/2005-heller.pdf

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#465

Post by shiroiushi »

philwelch wrote: post #352
cogman10 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because for neither China nor the USSR was that the main contributor to their national problems. Further, the education system of both are definitely implementations of "let's spend the most money on the smartest people". In a discussion about the collapse of societies, it doesn't apply. In a discussion about education reform, it does not apply. It is also not an example of the original commentors statement that conq…

There’s a selection bias in that the USSR and China both actually turned into barely functioning societies afterwards, often because they implemented their ideals in inconsistent or hypocritical ways. If you take the same ideology and actually apply it consistently you’re the Khmer Rouge.

Sounds similar to religions. If a religious group sticks strongly to its religion's founding principles and teachings, it's "fundamentalist" and is basically a cult or something like The Handmaid's Tale. The groups that water everything down and are hypocritical and inconsistent are much more successful long-term, with far more members and lots of money.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#466

Post by maronato »

euroderf wrote: post #140
bobfromsf wrote: post #90

As a father with a son with IQ over 160, I can tell you unequivocally that California thinks gifted kids are the enemy. Gifted children, especially profoundly gifted kids like mine are special needs. He can’t function in a regular class because he would become bored and would act out and constantly get in trouble. Since my kid was a toddler we have had to completely rely on ourselves to figure everything out and we w…

> We have had to go to private school because California does not skip grades even though it’s obvious the child doesn’t belong in the grade level for his age. Be careful what you wish for. Skipping 2nd grade led to bullying hell until I stayed for a second year of 6th. I think what you want for your kid is to skip N grades ahead in select subjects but otherwise stay in age peer group.

Yeah, I’m skeptical about the benefits of skipping lots of grades. If you have money to throw around, hire private tutors to teach them more advanced subjects and let them enjoy the social aspects of school with their peers. Otherwise, what’s the best outcome? The kid spends their entire school years socially isolated from peers who are in different stages of puberty and growth. They enter college at 14/15 and risk missing a lot of what college has to offer besides education. Then, finally, they enter the wage machine at 18-19, having lost a lot of their childhood and now having to behave like adults. Everything may work out and they’ll retire at 40 to live the life they missed, or they may be socially and psychologically scarred by the pressure put on them by others and by themselves throughout their life.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#467

Post by ImJamal »

nashashmi wrote: post #62
ImJamal wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can help the weakest links without tearing down the most gifted.

it is not a teardown we are talking about. But rather giving attention. Give certain students more attention and that takes away equal attention from everyone else. if you gave attention to two kids, one was smart and quick, and the other was slow and stiff, who would you help more?

You tear them down by not providing the education they deserve. You tear them down by forcing them into classes with dumb kids. You tear them down by forcing them into classes with trouble maker kids.

Nobody is getting more or less attention and nobody is advocating for that.

I would help both kids equally by having two teachers. One who could help the smart kids and one who could help the less intelligent kid. This isn't an either or situation.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#468

Post by maronato »

Animats wrote: post #191

> But others said the admissions exam and additional application requirements are inherently unfair to students of color who face socioeconomic disadvantages. Elaine Waldman, whose daughter is enrolled in Reed’s IHP, said the test is “elitist and exclusionary,” and hoped dropping it would improve the diversity of the program. Recognizing gifted students is inherently discriminatory. Because these are the numbers: Ave…

Let’s say I have a set of newborn white rats and another of gray rats.

The gray rats get nutritious meals at periodic intervals, have access to their rat mamas, and are allowed to roam free in a large, comfortable and safe environment. As they grow, I give them intellectual challenges in exchange for food, incentivize them to exercise and continue giving them all nutrients they need. The white rats, however, are kept isolated in small cages and are fed every two days with the scraps of the gray rats. I don’t give them intellectual challenges or the opportunity to properly exercise.

After a couple of years, I administer a test on them. The test is very similar to the intellectual challenges I was giving before to the gray rats.

To my surprise, the gray rats do a lot better than the white rats.

Obvious conclusion: Gray rats have higher IQ than white rats on average.

——

This is obviously an exaggeration, but I hope it helps people understand how similar things can and do happen in the real world with real humans.

It’s the environment they are raised in, their relationships, the incentives, the adult examples they encounter, their access to good and empathetic education, role models they can relate to and aspire towards.

Those, I assure you, are much better indicators of intelligence and education than their physical appearance or genetics.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#469

Post by ndriscoll »

anon84873628 wrote: post #447
Jensson wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Note: From the start we assume that the gifted deserve more from public school, thus we call them "neglected" when they seem to be simply treated the same. Do you think challenged kids deserve more from public school than anyone else? The point is that different kids has different needs, the general classroom is designed for the average student and doesn't fit those who are very different regardless in what way the…

>Do you think challenged kids deserve more from public school than anyone else? Well, let's say we can only spend the money on one group or the other. One could argue that the disadvantaged kids should be prioritized because they need more help, and are less likely to succeed without it. Whereas gifted kids might be bored in school and do worse than if they had dedicated programs, but they still have the chance to fi…

> Well, let's say we can only spend the money on one group or the other.

That seems like a heavy assumption to me. The gifted kids are still being allocated to classes, so you can serve them better using the same resources you would anyway by just grouping them together.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#470

Post by hintymad »

Seattle3503 wrote: post #439
hintymad wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is to make gift classes fluid. That is, the worst performing kids leave the program every year, while the best kids outside the program move in. Parents can only push so much, but they can't change talent distribution. What about the kids who thrive when their parents push hard enough? Well, in that case the kids are indeed talented, no? If the US people are inspired by seeing the street of LA at 4:00am…

Stack ranking kids sounds terrible.

Strict ranking is indeed terrible. A threshold makes sense, though. If a kid can't keep up with the demand of the gift program, the kid should seek a more suitable program.
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