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Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

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Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With the way that computer vision and AI continue to improve, I imagine that we will soon have completely external and undetectable cheating peripherals, simply capture the screen direct from the display output, and pass inputs via mimicking a usb human input device. This already exists. You can stream your screen to another machine running image recognition and pass your mouse input through a controller that injec…

For hacks that don't access program memory directly, would external hardware make things less detectable? I don't know how anti-cheat programs work but I'd be surprised if they banned every skilled player that happens to be running AHK and OBS. More likely they work with heuristics that try to detect super-human mouse movements, precision/speed-wise.

> For hacks that don't access program memory directly, would external hardware make things less detectable?

Yes. But, it's a game of cat and mouse. Anticheat always is. There's not been a need go to the level of "there are X players who report having a Razer deathadder, which we've validated as having a DPI range of Y-Z. With your OS settings, it's not possible to have achieved that with that mouse therefore we suspect you of cheating". But we're probably there now.

> More likely they work with heuristics that try to detect super-human mouse movements, precision/speed-wise.

It's heurestics all the way down. You're unlikely to be banned for AHK+OBS, but a heurestic on what you're doing with the combo might ban you.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#462

kernel level anticheat is not enough. client inputs have to be trusted, and there is no provenance. the kernel has no visibility of inputs. i’m shipping a 100 player matchmaking game now. clients tick at 360hz, server ticks at 120hz. fair up to 60 ping, which covers entire continents. servers are metal, not vms. epyc 4244p with 2Gbps egress, 1 server per 15 minute game. mitigations=off and nosmt on all clients and th…

very interesting approach here, but i wonder if steam could provide a way to distribute this game in its current form. maybe a generic steamos image with console-level isolation, and make the game steamos-only perhaps? no offense, but there might be a sliver of the pie that don't like cheaters but also don't mind running something as invasive.

i might distribute a usb flashing downloading thingy in steam, but it’s not a priority.

the goal is to be minimally invasive. you don’t have to install anything!

i don’t fight your misconfigured pc, you don’t worry about me scanning your c drive.

nothing to install, configure, save, or lose.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#463
post #107
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think server side statistical analysis can go a long way to detect stuff like that. Obviously its always a cat and mouse game between devs and cheaters, and there are always workarounds, but theres a lot more the devs could be doing without relying on invasive client side detection.

You can tune the aimbot to be as good as the server allows, maybe with a bit of variation to throw it off. And realistically, some real non-cheating players will by chance just have similar statistics to bots, especially since the bots will start doing their best to mimic real players. Also many players don't need to cheat all the time; just in that critical moment when it really matters. Didn't Magnus Carlsen say he…

  Didn't Magnus Carlsen say he only needs a single move from a chess computer in the right moment to be virtually guaranteed win
If we are thinking of the same quote, iirc he said all he needs is a prompt from computer "there is a winning move here"

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#464

Hope there will be a tag. I wish they also had a tag for "requires third party account" so I could just filter those games out so I never see them.

Tags are crowdsourced. I was tagging games with "always-online DRM" before they declared it on the store page, but only the top few tags are displayed, so there's no point.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i mean, i haven't built an os. it's just standard archlinux with minor conf. my binaries will run, but they would regardless of the platform. i can't tell users to go into bios and turn off smt. i can tell them to boot an iso, and have it preset to do that via kernel cmdline. owning the os means i can tune the network stack, the os, the kernel, anything that helps performance. the game itself has minimal config, only…

> can tell them to boot an iso, and have it preset to do that via kernel cmdline. owning the os means i can tune the network stack, the os, the kernel, anything that helps performance. the game itself has minimal config, only keybinds. I think this is an interesting idea. Lots of things we do are done the way they are because they've always been done like that. "Turn off Antivirus" has been common advice for PC playe…

where we are going, we don’t need graphics config. cyberpunk and cortana will always be there, only a reboot away.

handcam anti-cheat and the replay system is how we deal with non-human inputs. ranked only.

in pubs, you may encounter a cheater. hopefully owning the whole os makes that easier to detect, but i’m not sure it will.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#466

kernel level anticheat is not enough. client inputs have to be trusted, and there is no provenance. the kernel has no visibility of inputs. i’m shipping a 100 player matchmaking game now. clients tick at 360hz, server ticks at 120hz. fair up to 60 ping, which covers entire continents. servers are metal, not vms. epyc 4244p with 2Gbps egress, 1 server per 15 minute game. mitigations=off and nosmt on all clients and th…

How do you stop anyone from modifying the image? Can you stop them from using DMA hacks? Can I boot the image in a VM?

not possible to stop modification, but i will be heavily surveilling the system, and i know exactly what it should look like. the process tree is known in advance.

handcam anti-cheat and replays will handle provenance of inputs. non-human inputs are cheating.

you could try to boot in vm, but performance will suffer. the server moved off vms for the same reason.

the only thing i really care about is non-human inputs. if you get really creative with booting the game, and aren’t nefarious, i’ll set phasers to stun.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#468
post #195

I've just reinstalled GTA V last week and I was very surprised to find out that I now have to install a rootkit to run it. They had the balls to add a mandatory kernel extension into a game that I've bought 10 years ago and that I wish to play in single player only. I find it utterly ridiculous. As usual, piracy would have been the superior experience.

We need to stop normalizing the idea that businesses can change the offer of a purchased product after the fact.

> These companies are all run by CEOs who got their MBAs at Darth Vader University, where the first lesson is “I have altered the deal, pray I don’t alter it further.”

https://pluralistic.net/2023/12/08/playstationed

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone that plays CS2 and Valorant regularly... Vanguard hasn't been effective for a while now. The cheating situation is a lot worse than CS in my experience, but every discussion gets shutdown because... well... it's Vanguard. With CS2 I have talked to many players about this and everyone says the same thing: "There's a very noticeable decline in cheaters above 10k Elo."... personally I have pushed beyond 15k a…

I have a very hard time believing that the rate of cheaters go down in high elo. IIRC the new CS2 leaderboard still regularly features cheat companies on it (eg. config by [cheat dev] as the leaderboard name.) I myself do not have any data to back up that claim, but yours completely goes against what I have experienced. I think the point about wallhack being more common in higher elo is more likely. I would add that…

You don't have replay in valorant, you can't be sure if the other player was cheating or not, in CS you can

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#470

With the way that computer vision and AI continue to improve, I imagine that we will soon have completely external and undetectable cheating peripherals, simply capture the screen direct from the display output, and pass inputs via mimicking a usb human input device. This won’t provide all the same capabilities as cheats that hook into the game process, such as wall hacks, but it would be possible to build a super hu…

> We already have external “radar” cheats that use the game stereo sound to give the direction that a certain sound(such as footsteps) came from.

Did you just imply my headphones are a cheating device?

More seriously, I've heard these type of devices already exist.

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