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NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

simonwillison.net

461–470 of 511 posts

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#461
post #147
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be a common trait of a lot of the more "aligned", "helpful" LLMs out there. You can drop any random excerpt from your diary into ChatGPT and it will tell you about how brilliant, sensitive, and witty you are. It's really quite sickening.

How is it sickening? Tell it to roast you if you think it's a problem.

It feels sickening to be praised meaninglessly for something not worthy of praise. ChatGPT in particular loves to talk about how clever and interesting text you show it is, even if you're not actually asking for that kind of analysis.

It's also sickening that I see people using these LLMs to rewrite performance reviews, peer feedback, business reports, etc. I've already started to notice business communication getting even more saccharine and toothless.

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#462
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be a common trait of a lot of the more "aligned", "helpful" LLMs out there. You can drop any random excerpt from your diary into ChatGPT and it will tell you about how brilliant, sensitive, and witty you are. It's really quite sickening.

Well, an LLM doesn’t have the capability to like anything more than anything else. It doesn’t really matter to GPT if your diary excerpt is the worst piece of writing ever written, or the most brilliant - it’ll just tell you what you want to hear and that’s that.

"Tell you what you want to hear" is a matter of training and prompting, not the technology itself. But I agree that asking an LLM to make an aesthetic judgment is a fool's errand.

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#463
post #182
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of feels like looking at an overflowing landfill and thinking "I wonder if we can invent a robot that just generates new trash directly into the landfill".

This holier than thou attitude that crops up in these threads is so annoying, as if people wanting to casually enjoy a mediocre podcast or radio show on the 1 hour commute to their shitty job is a crime.

I'm not criticizing the people who consume garbage, but the people who are enthusiastic about opening new markets in garbage. People should strive to do good, worthwhile things with their lives.

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#464
post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason so much writing, podcasting, and music is vulnerable to AI disruption is that quality has already become secondary. Commercial creative workers are vulnerable because there's a billions-of-dollars industry effort to copy their professional output and compete with them selling cheap knock-offs. I see this sort of convenient resignation all the time in the tech crowd... "creative workers only can blame the…

I'm confused about your point RE: infomercials et al - that's poor quality "content" that's been proliferating for, as you say, more than 50 years. Is that not the work of commercial creative workers? Did it not exist pre AI? There's an argument to scale, certainly, but the idea that "things were better in the past before these > came out" is generally a suspect argument. To your broader point - new tools for creatin…

>Is that not the work of commercial creative workers? Did it not exist pre AI? There's an argument to scale, certainly, but the idea that "things were better in the past before these > came out" is generally a suspect argument.

The fact that all of that stuff was crap is central to my point. You might just need to give it another read.

> Art is a way of seeing, not a way of creating. I don't think the technology is taking that away.

I'm really sick and tired of the tech industry's bumper-sticker-level-reductive pseudo-philosophical generalizations about "what art is," what it means to be an artist, the acceptable ways to be an artist, and all of that. Art is a whole fucking lot of things, and chief among them in this context is a class of professions. Glib decrees based on a razor-thin slice of one of the broadest topics in the human experience that conveniently exclude or dismiss the stakes of those with the loudest criticism and the most to lose is obviously self-serving. If you're going to take the libertarian "well that's the market for ya" stance," at least be honest about it. If you're going to try to carefully define the entire universe of ideas and practices that comprise art to conveniently exclude the concerns of the people getting screwed over because you think the optics are better or you feel less icky about it, well you better expect to get some really pissed off responses from them.

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#465
post #242
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This holier than thou attitude that crops up in these threads is so annoying, as if people wanting to casually enjoy a mediocre podcast or radio show on the 1 hour commute to their shitty job is a crime.

I don’t think anyone cares about other people’s cheap pleasures. What people do care about is the displacement of quality and craft. For instance, you could say the same thing about the state of the web - say when searching for recipes. Maybe some people like the ads, the consent forms, the backstories? Why so purist? Isn’t it nice with a bit of scrolling and getting in the mood for cooking with a bit of SEO? Defendi…

Right. Similarly, I criticize the people who worked to make cigarettes more addictive, fast food more 'craveable', freemium games more appealing to whales, gambling more attractive to problem gamblers, etc. but not people who smoke, eat fast food, play freemium games, or gamble. That would be deeply hypocritical.

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#466
post #425
post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tech folks love sentiments like this because it entirely emotionally places the onus on the people getting ripped off by big tech companies for being ripped off. This, times a million. Add to that the ancient quote from Plato(?) criticizing writing or the other ancient quote complaining about the irresponsibility of the youth, unthinkingly deployed to attempt to delegitimize any kind of critique of nearly anything.…

> > the people getting ripped off Nobody is getting "ripped off" by ML models any more than by other humans. When a human wants to launch a high-quality podcast, they survey the market, listen to a lot of other high quality podcasts, and then set to creating their own derivative work. What ML models are doing is really no different. It's just much, much faster. Everything humans create is derivative of other works. S…

The only difference between cracking a 4-bit private key and a 512-bit private key is speed, too. So are private keys of those sizes qualitatively the same thing?

Or is it that, at some nebulous point, a difference in speed between two things impacts the way humans choose to direct their efforts to such a great extent that, for all intents and purposes, the two things are qualitatively different?

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#467
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI looks like it will commoditise intellectual excellence. It is hard to see how that would end up making the world more mediocre. It'd be like the ancient Romans speculating that cars will make us less fit and therefore cities will be less impressive because we can't lift as much. That isn't at all how it played out, we just build cities with machines too and need a lot less workers in construction.

> It'd be like the ancient Romans speculating that cars will make us less fit and therefore cities will be less impressive because we can't lift as much. That isn't at all how it played out Isn’t this exactly how it played out?

No, obviously not. Modern construction is leagues outside what the Romans could ever hope to achieve. Something like the Burj Khalifa would be the subject of myth and legend to them.

We move orders of magnitude more cargo and material than them because fitness isn't the limiting factor on how much work gets done. They didn't understand that having humans doing all that labour is a mistake and the correct approach is to use machines.

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#468

One of my favorite ChatGPT uses is voice chat during long drives as a pseudo, albeit interactive, podcast to learn about various technical topics at the edge of my knowledge base. This podcast generation is pretty amazing, but hopefully they make the "competency level" of the hosts tunable. One thing I love is being able to guide ChatGPT to the technical level I'm looking for. Maybe I'm just bad at finding podcasts,…

I've got a product https://reasonote.com which generates podcasts like NotebookLM, and also you interact with the podcast in real-time, so you can regenerate it based on what you're interested in hearing. Working on Whisper input, too!

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#469
post #243
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't "quite expert-level in terms of symbolic reasoning" in the same way as a soapbox isn't "quite a formula 1"

We accidentally invented general models that can coherently muse about the philosophical beliefs of Gilles Deleuze at length, and accurately, based on two full books that they summarized. You can be cynical until your dying day, that’s your right — but I highly recommend letting that fact be a little bit impressive, someday. There’s no way you live through any event that’s more historically significant, other than pe…

These aren't "general" models. They're statistical models. They're autocorrect or autocomplete on steroids -- and autocorrect/autocomplete don't require symbolic reasoning.

It's also not at all clear to me what "symbolic" could mean in this context. If it means the software has concepts, my response would be that they aren't concepts of a kind that we can clearly recognize or label as such (edit: and that's to say nothing of the fact that the ability to hold concepts/symbols and understand them as concepts/symbols presupposes internal life and awareness).

The best analogy I've heard for these models is this: you take a completely, perfectly naive, ignorant man, who knows nothing, and you place him in a room, sealed off from everything. He has no knowledge of the outside world, of you, or of what your might want from him. But you slip under the door of his cell pieces of paper containing mathematical or linguistic expressions, and he learns or is somehow induced to do something with them and pass them back. When what he does with them pleases you, you reward him. Each time you do this, you reinforce a behavior.

You repeat this process, over and over. As a result, he develops habits. Training continues, and those habits become more and more precisely fitted to your expectations and intentions.

After enough time and enough training, his habits are so well formed that he seems to know what a sonnet is, how to perform derivatives and integrals, and seems to understand (and be able to explain!) concepts like positive and negative, and friend and foe. He can even write you a rap-battle libretto about nineteenth-century English historiography in the style of Thomas Paine imitating Ikkyu.

Fundamentally, though, he doesn't know what any of these tokens mean. He still doesn't know that there's an outside world. He may have ideas that are guiding his behavior, but you have no way of knowing that -- or of knowing whether they bear any resemblance to concepts or ideas you would recognize.

These models deal with tokens similarly. They don't know what a token is or represents -- or we have no reason to think they do. They're just networks of weights, relationships, and tendencies that, from a given seed and given input, generate an output, just like any program, just like your phone keyboard generates predictions about the next word you'll want to type.

Given billions and billions and billions and billions of parameters, why shouldn't such a program score highly on an IQ test or on the LSAT? Once the number of parameters available to the program reaches a certain threshold (edit: and we've programmed a way for it to connect the dots), shouldn't we be able to design it in such a way that it can compute correct answers to questions that seem to require complex, abstract reasoning, regardless of whether it has the capacity to reason? Or shouldn't we be able to give it enough data that it's able to find the relationships that enable it to simulate/generate patterns indistinguishable from real, actual reasoning?

I don't think one needs to be cynical to be unimpressed. I'm unimpressed simply because these models aren't clearly doing anything new in kind. What they're doing seems to be new, and novel, only because of the scale at which they do what they do.

Edit: Moreover, I'm hostile to the economic forces that produced these models, as everybody should be. They're the purest example of what Jaron Lanier has been warning us about -- namely that, when information is free, the wealthiest are going to be the ones who profit from it and dominate, because they'll be the ones able to pay for the technology that can exploit it.

I have no doubt Altman is aware of this. And I have no doubt that he's little better than Elizabeth Holmes, making ethical compromises and cutting legal corners, secure in the smug knowledge that he'll surely pay his moral debts (and avoid looking at the painting in the attic) and obviously make the world a better place once he has total market dominance.

And none of the other major players are any better.

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#470

NotebookLM's is incredibly good at generating the affect and structure of a quality podcast. This is in-line with all art, music, and video created by LMM at the moment. They are imitating a structure and affect, the quality of the content is largely irrelevant. I think the interesting thing is that most people don't really care, and AI is not to blame for that. Most books published today have the affect of a book, b…

> The reason so much writing, podcasting, and music is vulnerable to AI disruption is that quality has already become secondary.

They're vulnerable because people aren't random. Most of what we do can be modeled statistically and translated into patterns and tendencies. Given a sufficient number of parameters, just about anything we do can be digested by an autocompletion program that can then generate an output similar enough to the real thing to fool us.

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