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Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

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Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#461

Post by mystified5016 »

TrapLord_Rhodo wrote: post #458
calderarrow wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be, for most of the same reasons as you. What ultimately convinced me was realizing that our judicial system can never be 100% perfect, so we would always have a non-zero number of innocent people executed as long as capital punishment is on the table. To me, I think the cost of keeping people incarcerated is worth the cost of accidentally executing innocent citizens. Put a bit more personally: would you su…

i think you missed my last line. That should answer your question. The government can never be perfect, and killing and innocent is a tragedy. However, you cannot cripple the whole system for this vanishgly small chance or you have an equal chance of success across the system. If you keep making those compromises, putting systems in place to correct the errors of past systems; it quickly becomes a losing game. Put mo…

So why not just select random citizens by lottery and publicly execute one for every 50 or 100 convicts executed?

You're willing to accept that if the random citizen is labeled as guilty even if they're not. If it's acceptable for innocent people to be executed, what's the difference in having a random death lottery?

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#462

Post by gen220 »

Nathanba wrote: post #191
anonzzzies wrote: post #57

Still not sure with so many of the (esp right leaning) in the US claiming to be christian, can also accept this as a punishment. But I get nonsense begets more nonsense.

I think even as a non-christian and especially if you comment like this you should know the absolute minimum about christianity: that the death penalty is obviously in the bible and commanded by God plenty of times

Christ preached non-violent resistance. Death penalty was in mosaic law, and Christ deliberately contradicted it.

Anybody who professes to be a Christian or follower of Christ’s teachings who supports violence in any form is in fact living in contradiction.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#463

Post by calderarrow »

TrapLord_Rhodo wrote: post #458
calderarrow wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be, for most of the same reasons as you. What ultimately convinced me was realizing that our judicial system can never be 100% perfect, so we would always have a non-zero number of innocent people executed as long as capital punishment is on the table. To me, I think the cost of keeping people incarcerated is worth the cost of accidentally executing innocent citizens. Put a bit more personally: would you su…

i think you missed my last line. That should answer your question. The government can never be perfect, and killing and innocent is a tragedy. However, you cannot cripple the whole system for this vanishgly small chance or you have an equal chance of success across the system. If you keep making those compromises, putting systems in place to correct the errors of past systems; it quickly becomes a losing game. Put mo…

Perhaps I misunderstood it, but I read that as you not finding the value of avoiding accidental executions as worth the cost to avoid them. And if so, then I think that’s a perfectly valid position. But it’s subjective, since others may find the value worth it.

I’m curious though: is there an error rate where you would feel like capital punishment would be off the table? For instance, if 90% of people executed were innocent, would you still want it for the 10% who deserve it? I admit that if we had a 100% success rate, I would be open to capital punishment, so we may actually agree that there’s a threshold where the system shouldn’t be allowed to use that as a form of punishment, and only disagree about about the percentage.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#464

Post by gen220 »

subsaharancoder wrote: post #151
tristan957 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody here is saying there shouldn't be consequences. Instead we are saying that every single person should have the right to seek forgiveness from their creator(s). If you execute someone before they have have made things right (or not), you are playing the role of God.

Everyone does have the right to seek forgiveness from God, and He does forgive "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" https://nasb.literalword.com/?q=1+John+1%3A9 , but in the same breath human beings are subject to government and the rules that go with it because God has given that authority "Every person is to be in subjection to the gover…

I don’t know if I would quote from completely distinct sections of the Bible and use the phrase “in the same breath”.

Romans 13:1-7 is a controversial section of Paul’s letters, because it implicitly contradicts the teachings of Christ if you stop in verse 1. If you look at the whole context of the passage, he seems to be placing conditions on verse 1 that would exclude pretty much every government in history.

As usual, it’s best to refer to Christ’s words in the gospels when you’re trying to understand his teachings. He preached nonviolent resistance, turning the other cheek, forbade oath-taking.

He did not say capital punishment is cool.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#465

Post by gen220 »

mrangle wrote: post #144
jzackpete wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an atheist, so I wouldn't consider myself an expert on their beliefs, but you don't appear to be either: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_kill

Lost in translation, the Commandment is not to murder. Legal killing of the guilty (of murder), and in self defense for example, is not murder. Just as it isn't in the secular legal system. Therefore, there is no conflict. That's not to say that there isn't room for mercy when called for. Also, prudence should be exercised to the highest possible standard and then some. No one has broken a Commandment by executing Te…

Christ gave commandments that superseded the Mosaic law.

He explicitly forbade violence in all forms, with no exceptions for retaliation. And he went further to say you should respond to violence with nonviolent love and submission.

Christ would not endorse capital punishment of Bundy, soldiers in any army, or “stand your ground” style killings.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#466

Post by moshun »

TrapLord_Rhodo wrote: post #458
calderarrow wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be, for most of the same reasons as you. What ultimately convinced me was realizing that our judicial system can never be 100% perfect, so we would always have a non-zero number of innocent people executed as long as capital punishment is on the table. To me, I think the cost of keeping people incarcerated is worth the cost of accidentally executing innocent citizens. Put a bit more personally: would you su…

i think you missed my last line. That should answer your question. The government can never be perfect, and killing and innocent is a tragedy. However, you cannot cripple the whole system for this vanishgly small chance or you have an equal chance of success across the system. If you keep making those compromises, putting systems in place to correct the errors of past systems; it quickly becomes a losing game. Put mo…

This argument always falls flat because those that claim state-sanctioned killing of innocent citizens is a necessary tragedy, never seem to say that they’d be willing to be murdered themselves in that scenario. It’s more like “Some of you may die, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.”

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#467

Post by spoonfeeder006 »

anon291 wrote: post #426

Reading the governor's letter it seems clear: 1. The witness who claimed Williams confessed provided non-publicly-available, but known-to-police, details about the case. This is very strong evidence that the confession was made to them. 2. The girlfriend's hesitation to go to police (she never asked for the reward money) is due to the fact that Williams threatened her family, which is a real threat considering his hi…

Can you verify point #1 from publicly available sources? I.e. not relying on the governor's word

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#468

Post by jimt1234 »

t-writescode wrote: post #457
jimt1234 wrote: post #207

I applaud the Innocence Project for taking this case, but honestly, Missouri? What did they expect? This is the same governor that tried to prosecute a newspaper reporter after they uncovered social security numbers in the HTML code from a state-run website. Then, when the governor was informed about how stupid his claim was, he doubled-down, insisting he would seek prosecution. https://www.npr.org/2021/10/14/1046124…

I imagine a team like The Innocence Project expects to lose most of their cases, but they try anyway because every life is worth saving.

well-said ^^^

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#469

Post by anonzzzies »

HarHarVeryFunny wrote: post #160
kergonath wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being Christian is about forgiving and loving your neighbours, isn’t it?

Lot's of people calling themselves Christian support Trump. I don't think you can deduce much about someone's character just because they go to church or call themselves religious.

I sure can; either you really believe it which means you must be quite deluded or you pretend to believe it (and cherry pick what and where you bring it up), in which case you are a grifter. Both I don't want to spend time with.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#470

Post by dangitman »

TrapLord_Rhodo wrote: post #434

Am i the only one in favor of capital punishment in this thread? My mom used to work at state hospital for the criminally insane. The stories she would tell me about how these people got in there were absolutely brutal. (Canabalism, satanic sacrafices of loved ones, all manor of wierd shit.). Instead of executing these lunatics, they send them to a "State Hospital" for rehabilitation. It's not a Prison, but a hospita…

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