Earlier quoted context omitted.
A recent Supreme Court ruling allows pretty much exactly this...
What ruling? What, more precisely than "pretty much this", does it allow?
Bribery.
Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
461–470 of 611 posts
Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#462Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes! Even as an engineer. I've quit jobs over ethics / safety concerns and I want that pushback to be the norm. When I need to convince other engineers I want to be able to point to such consequences as to why we shouldn't be dangerously cutting corners. And even if you only punish engineers it will decrease the pool of talent / cost effectiveness of workers available to the unscrupulous managers such that cutting co…
When you start criminally charging people for mistakes in critical systems, what you're going to get is coverups. With a no-fault system, mistakes are not covered up, but fixed. With a fault system: 1. if a mistake is discovered, it will not be fixed because that would be an admission of criminal liability. 2. Quality will not be improved, because that is (again) an implicit admission that the previous design was fau…
You're not the first person I've head of this idea from; it's from the NTSB charter
The NTSB does not assign fault or blame for an accident or incident; rather, as specified by NTSB regulation, “accident/incident investigations are fact-finding proceedings with no formal issues and no adverse parties … and are not conducted for the purpose of determining the rights or liabilities of any person”
But there was plenty of blaming / faulting going around outside of the NTSB. Hence the fraud we're currently talking about where Boeing tried to blame the pilots who rather conveniently for Boeing died and are no longer around to defend themselves.
I'm glad you feel personally assured though your enthusiastic personal connections but that does not work for me. That it works for you actually makes me feel less safe flying.
Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#463Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm sure they can try. But put yourself in the shoes of that engineer. Imagine what would go through your head. My entire MO would be CYA. Every 1on1 conversation, secretly recorded (thank you favorable NY state laws), and a paper trail a mile long. For just this reason.
I don't get what you are trying to say though. If companies can use 'a mile long paper trail', why can't the engineer do the same?. If it turns out they were forced to do X over their own objections (people do have mortgages and need medical coverage), then that manager gets the blame. Seems fair??
A manager needs to do their own CYA. If they don't, well, that's on them. But you as an individual should only focus on what you can control.
Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#464Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#465Earlier quoted context omitted.
It had nothing to do with racism against the victims. It’s quite literally that the level of rigor to be a pilot in Africa is not the same as what the FAA requires. Airlines very frequently get banned from US airspace because their procedures do not meet the strict safety bar set by the FAA. So it’s very reasonable to assume that what was identified as a training gap on the MCAS operations was due to sloppy regional…
The NTSB and FAA were both sent to help with the investigation (as they would for any US airplane manufacturer), so I’m not sure how them “[setting] the bar for aviation safety and crash investigation” comes into play here.
“Help with investigation” after the fact is why we found out Boeing buried shit. It has nothing to do with initial assumptions.
Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#466Earlier quoted context omitted.
You had the privilege of being able to quit the job over ethics / concerns. I'm assuming you didn't wind up homeless with starving children. I have definitely not always had that in my career and many people don't.
I have ME/CFS which means for most of my life I've barely been able to make enough in the good times to cover the extended bad times. Running out of money for me is basically a death sentence as it would become increasingly impossible to dig my way out of such a hole. Normal people at their worst could probably stack shelves or wash dishes for a living but that option is not available to me. I'm better at managing my…
I was homeless at 17 in high school before going into the Marines in 2002. I know what having negative money is like, health problems or not.
That doesn't change the fact that it comes from absolute privilege to tell someone that they should just quit their job because you don't agree with the ethics or morality of work they're doing.
If you HAVE the privilege, the savings, the good health not needing COBRA, etc, then by all means walk away. You also don't mention having children, I know a LOT of parents and they absolutely don't have the money to be able to just walk away and keep their kids lifestyles, healthcare, etc until finding something new.
But judging someone potentially desperate and on already on the edge for where they work in most cases is pretty off. You have your own story someone wouldn't be aware of without telling them that as you say may make it impossible to dig yourself out of a hole. Who knows what situation someones in?
Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#467Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes! Even as an engineer. I've quit jobs over ethics / safety concerns and I want that pushback to be the norm. When I need to convince other engineers I want to be able to point to such consequences as to why we shouldn't be dangerously cutting corners. And even if you only punish engineers it will decrease the pool of talent / cost effectiveness of workers available to the unscrupulous managers such that cutting co…
When you start criminally charging people for mistakes in critical systems, what you're going to get is coverups. With a no-fault system, mistakes are not covered up, but fixed. With a fault system: 1. if a mistake is discovered, it will not be fixed because that would be an admission of criminal liability. 2. Quality will not be improved, because that is (again) an implicit admission that the previous design was fau…
[deleted]
Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#468Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem is that finding the people responsible can be extremely hard, so you have to go against the corporation itself. Punishing a corporation is easy, but the government hates doing it for obvious reasons. It means ruining something which is useful to you and punishing tens of thousands of completely innocent people, with inevitable layoffs. What Boeing really needs is a complete change in management culture, a…
> The problem is that finding the people responsible can be extremely hard > What Boeing really needs is a complete change in management culture Who is ultimately responsible for management at a company though? The CEO and the other C-level people. This isn't really the daunting difficult problem you make it out to be: the buck stops at the C-suite. Who else could possibly be ultimately responsible??
The board and the c-suite of Boeing should be replaced, and they should personally have to pay life changing fines and serve jail time.
Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#469Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#470Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have ME/CFS which means for most of my life I've barely been able to make enough in the good times to cover the extended bad times. Running out of money for me is basically a death sentence as it would become increasingly impossible to dig my way out of such a hole. Normal people at their worst could probably stack shelves or wash dishes for a living but that option is not available to me. I'm better at managing my…
I was homeless at 17 in high school before going into the Marines in 2002. I know what having negative money is like, health problems or not. That doesn't change the fact that it comes from absolute privilege to tell someone that they should just quit their job because you don't agree with the ethics or morality of work they're doing. If you HAVE the privilege, the savings, the good health not needing COBRA, etc, the…
I disagree again, and I would much rather be homeless than have ME/CFS, I'd still make that trade today. You clearly don't know what it means to have ME/CFS and I don't begrudge that, hardly anyone does.
I would rather you be homeless than have you be part of making an airplane unsafe and I will judge you for that. I don't care how hard life is for you and I don't expect others to care how life has been for me - if you are part of making other people unnecessarily unsafe I hope you burn in hell for eternity. It's not a matter of privilege and just because you have found your way of being ok with it does not mean I still will not judge such decisions as unethical, immoral, improper and unbecoming of human in general and an engineer specifically.