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Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

nytimes.com

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Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#461

Post by adolph »

harimau777 wrote: post #380
nabla9 wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.50 cal sniper rifles and shoulder launched weapons like Carl Gustaf, the M72 LAW or the AT4 can. Firing a rifle may or may not cause shock waves that are strong enough. If you have been firing a whole day you definitely feel funny in the head.

How much do special forces use weapons significantly more specialized than the standard issue M4? CoD suggests that every operator is slinging a sniper rifle and some highly customized exotic small batch assault rifle; however, I'm guessing that's likely just to make the games more exciting.

My guess for most likely vector is breach charges.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#462

Post by cjbgkagh »

mopsi wrote: post #451
cjbgkagh wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont agree with your framing but doubt I could change your mind. Instead I will ask what is your excuse, unless you’re posting on HN from some battlefield you must have some sort of excuse as to why you are not acting on your supposedly strongly held beliefs.

I am a reservist in a country that has such a high risk of Russian invasion that defense leaders have stopped all non-essential spending in favor of hoarding as much artillery and rockets as they can for when the time comes. I do not have a suitcase packed and I do not intend to flee anywhere. And people here are taught since childhood that this not about being an useful little soldier for the government, but an esse…

So because you don’t need the freedom to not volunteer others shouldn’t have it either? The issue pertains to pressganging which of course does not apply to volunteers.

I don’t agree with the framing again, but again I don’t think I’ll be changing anyone’s mind here.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#463

Post by somenameforme »

josefresco wrote: post #441
somenameforme wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you not realize when you're reading literal propaganda? This quote is but one section from there, which I clicked to because it had a silly heading - and it delivered. --- A consensus has formed among the growing community of AHI sufferers that the U.S. government — and the CIA in particular — is hiding the full extent of what it knows about the source of Havana Syndrome. The victims offer two general hypotheses a…

Russia isn't "running around randomly". Their (alleged) actions are very targeted and deliberate. "attacking low level embassy workers" Do you think really they'd pick the US president as their first target on an experimental (or even proven) weapon? And I wouldn't call embassy employees "random" in any context. >US knows this and is playing PR for Russia, because they're worried about US citizens viewing Russia nega…

I'd recommend reading the study. You're making some false claims. In particular quoting the study:

---

While the U.S. Government allowed the release of the [politicized findings which suggested weapons as a possible cause], they withheld the results of other investigations that were skeptical of the condition. In 2018, the Federal Bureau of Investigation concluded that mass psychogenic illness was most likely responsible for the outbreak. While the report remains classified, its conclusions were leaked to the media. The contents of a second classified report were only released in September 2021 after a Freedom of Information Act filing. It found the role of microwave radiation “highly unlikely,” and that psychogenic illness appeared to play a role

---

The political establishment was actively trying to suggest it was caused by secret weapons from "foreign adversaries", and classifying the opinions which contradicted that. They were undermined by a mixture of leaks and Freedom of Information Act requests. People claiming to suffer from the syndrome numbered in the hundreds in 70 countries around the world [1], including many Western nations where "foreign adversaries" would stand minimal chance of deploying any sort of a weapon, even more so after the initial incidents. Notably, from the same article, workers who reported suffering from 'Havana Syndrome' were able to receive compensation of up to $200,000.

[1] - https://apnews.com/article/health-cuba-havana-congress-e0186...

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#464

Post by josefresco »

datameta wrote: post #454
josefresco wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia isn't "running around randomly". Their (alleged) actions are very targeted and deliberate. "attacking low level embassy workers" Do you think really they'd pick the US president as their first target on an experimental (or even proven) weapon? And I wouldn't call embassy employees "random" in any context. >US knows this and is playing PR for Russia, because they're worried about US citizens viewing Russia nega…

Well... I would agree with your final sentence were it not for the fact that we strongly adhered to Russia's numerous red lines as far as weapon systems delivery to Ukraine.

I get you, but I wouldn't classify that as "running PR for Russia" more like "there are multiple factors involved". Was/is it to keep oil prices down? Was/is it to slow escalation? Or was/is it practical reasons related to strategy? I )(personally) don't think any of one of those is the sole reason, but I'm certain it wasn't because the current US administration wants to appease Russia. Now the potential next administration? That's a different story.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#465

Post by 8372049 »

hwillis wrote: post #386
nabla9 wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.50 cal sniper rifles and shoulder launched weapons like Carl Gustaf, the M72 LAW or the AT4 can. Firing a rifle may or may not cause shock waves that are strong enough. If you have been firing a whole day you definitely feel funny in the head.

> .50 cal sniper rifles and shoulder launched weapons like Carl Gustaf, the M72 LAW or the AT4 can [produce shock waves that induce cavitation in brain tissue] The US military, and militaries in general, do not use weapons like the M82/M107 as sniper rifles very often. The M82/M107 in particular has a recoiling barrel (the entire 2.5' barrel slides back when shooting) and isn't a very precise weapon. They're used for…

> The US military has pretty rarely used shoulder fired weapons, since they very rarely have to worry about tanks or aircraft. SEALs in particular wouldn't be doing that.

Do you know that, or are you thinking "these are AT weapons so they wouldn't be used"?

I haven't worked with US forces on a tactical level, but I have served in Afghanistan with my own country's SOFs. We used M72s extensively, even though we never engaged any armor.

I wasn't around for this picture, but it illustrates the point:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwDn4ryCEAApiYS.jpg:large

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#466

Post by Shocka1 »

harimau777 wrote: post #377
kragen wrote: post #217

> Much of what is categorized as post-traumatic stress disorder may actually be caused by repeated exposure to blasts. that is to say, it's actually shell shock? as in, actual physical shock from actual shells? george carlin would be so proud https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuEQixrBKCc the article also mentions that they'd all trained extensively in diving deep underwater, which is also known to cause brain damage, b…

FWIW The standard rifles used by the US Military (M16 and it's variants/decedents) are fairly low power, low recoil, and quiet as rifles go. Of course I'm not doctor so maybe they are still enough to cause damage and like another poster pointed out, there are other weapons that soldiers use which are much more powerful.

Mostly agree - I'd like to add that 5.56 seems like a toy until you bring it inside to play, where it's an entirely different story... The first shot feels like someone slamming the switch off on your ears. I wouldn't think this is the cause of brain damage though. IMO the overexposure SEALs have to the modern warfare breach charge is a huge red flag.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#467

Post by josefresco »

somenameforme wrote: post #463
josefresco wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia isn't "running around randomly". Their (alleged) actions are very targeted and deliberate. "attacking low level embassy workers" Do you think really they'd pick the US president as their first target on an experimental (or even proven) weapon? And I wouldn't call embassy employees "random" in any context. >US knows this and is playing PR for Russia, because they're worried about US citizens viewing Russia nega…

I'd recommend reading the study. You're making some false claims. In particular quoting the study: --- While the U.S. Government allowed the release of the [politicized findings which suggested weapons as a possible cause], they withheld the results of other investigations that were skeptical of the condition. In 2018, the Federal Bureau of Investigation concluded that mass psychogenic illness was most likely respons…

> Notably, from the same article, workers who reported suffering from 'Havana Syndrome' were able to receive compensation of up to $200,000.

Are you suggesting these people reported symptoms in order to be eligible for potential future government compensation? Compensation I remind you, that didn't even exist until very recently.

Oh and I couldn't resist:

"Specific amounts will be determined to by the extent and severity of the victims’ injuries, which have included brain damage not limited to vertigo, cognitive damage, eyesight and hearing problems, according to the officials and aides."

That's some "psychogenic illness"! And why would they compensate at all if this is just made up?

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#468

Post by nonrandomstring »

Trow849fj wrote: post #432
jack_riminton wrote: post #404

A lot of special forces have been doing what we used to call "door kicking" in the last few wars. Lots of explosive breaches, firing weapons and throwing grenades indoors. I'm sure this is the main contributing factor. The percussive force of firing and explosives indoors is horrible and I say this as an ex artillery officer, so I'm used to chest-breaking bangs from firing big artillery guns

Any source for this? Artillery was around for 500 years and shell shock was hugely discussed for past 100 years. There is much better corellation with divorce. Soldiers returns home with PTSD, only to have their house, children, savings and pension stollen. Because they were not around to guard it! And they may get thrown into prison for being too poor! Shell shock is very convinient excuse, when victims do not get p…

Those words were spoken almost exactly 100 years ago

"Shell shock" is a made up term. Other than on hearing the effects of high impulse on a human are long-term, complex and still an areas of research.

In WW1, in Northfields hospital they started to define PTSD in ways that didn't quite add up. Some soldiers had never been under bombardment but had the same symptoms.

Nonetheless, the term remained in use because

1) "Shell shock" was deemed curable with rest, and the main objective was to get soldiers patched up and back to the front.

2) It was a way to avoid getting shot for desertion. A decent officer would not order traumatised men disciplined but send them on to hospital with "shell shock".

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_shock

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#469

Post by somenameforme »

josefresco wrote: post #467
somenameforme wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd recommend reading the study. You're making some false claims. In particular quoting the study: --- While the U.S. Government allowed the release of the [politicized findings which suggested weapons as a possible cause], they withheld the results of other investigations that were skeptical of the condition. In 2018, the Federal Bureau of Investigation concluded that mass psychogenic illness was most likely respons…

> Notably, from the same article, workers who reported suffering from 'Havana Syndrome' were able to receive compensation of up to $200,000. Are you suggesting these people reported symptoms in order to be eligible for potential future government compensation? Compensation I remind you, that didn't even exist until very recently. Oh and I couldn't resist: "Specific amounts will be determined to by the extent and seve…

The study got into the "injuries" in detail. Quoting it, once again:

---

One found that patients “appeared to have sustained injury to widespread brain networks without an associated history of head trauma” (Swanson et al., 2018, p. 1125). But standard MRI scans of the brain were normal and based on the criteria for abnormal neuropsychological tests, just about anybody would be diagnosed with brain injury as the threshold for impairment was excessively high (Della Sala & Cubelli, 2018). Another study using functional MRI found “brain anomalies” in a small cohort of patients (Ragini et al., 2019). But such anomalies are common with this imagining technique, often representing normal individual variation.

--

And I'm stopping the quote there for brevity. It goes on with further elaboration.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#470

Post by jvanderbot »

erva wrote: post #427

Qualifier: Former US special operations operator that served in multiple wars. My anecdotal take is there are many ways that shock and trauma can accumulate through training and war that are far beyond the minimal effects of an M4. Firearms: While the primary weapons systems are the M4 and side arm (pistol), there are many weapons systems utilized by special operations such as sniper rifles, crew serve weapons, and n…

Thank you for sharing. It's a tragedy that this does not have enough mitigation and follow-up treatment. Armed forces are a necessity, and should not damage a generation beyond repair, and especially not in relative peace.
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