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Are animals conscious? New research

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Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#461

Post by delecti »

wruza wrote: post #422
lukan wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How else could you justify treating them as a mere raw ressource in factory?

I'm sure that consciousness is a spectrum and that big mammals are near us on it, if there's any difference at all except for intelligence levels. At the same time I have no issues with animal resource factories. I justify their existence by the fact that I'm a carnivore and needed meat and fats to properly operate since forever, no need for complex philosophy here. The necessity to justify that against ethics usuall…

If you're human, you aren't an obligate carnivore, because humans can live healthily on a fully vegan diet. Animal products (meat, dairy, eggs) certainly gave pre-industrial humans a big boost as a dense and (at times) readily available source of calories and protein, but that's a far cry from "needing" it.

Modern usage of animal products for food is purely for convenience and pleasure. A point could be made that that's sufficent, but it's objectively not necessary.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#463

Post by maxbond »

bowsamic wrote: post #452
bowsamic wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh then demonstrate your supernatural abilities to know what a lizard is feeling to us

Why am I being flagged for comments that should not be flagged at all?

You probably wouldn't have been flagged if you'd said something like, "I remain skeptical. Could you demonstrate your ability to tell what lizards are thinking?" In my experience comments are usually flagged for tone rather than content.

If my comment was overly provocative, I apologize. I was trying to get a laugh out of you. It's a passage from my favorite book. Based on past interactions, I thought that book fell into your area of interest, so I thought you may have read it and get a chuckle out of the reference. But perhaps that was overly familiar on my part.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#464

Post by farhaven »

slowmovintarget wrote: post #137
lolinder wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I reject panpsychism as going against common sense; I think there probably are very simple (read: small) animals that aren't conscious. Yes, I can definitely agree with this. I'm more reacting to the idea that it's somehow an unresolved scientific question whether dogs and cats and other mammals have emotions. There isn't a sufficiently large difference in neurology between humans and other mammals for me to believ…

Dogs definitely have Theory of Mind. There was a study done that placed a treat in a room where the dog was instructed not to eat it. A handler was in the room with the dog. When the lights were turned out, the dogs would eat the treat, because they knew that the human couldn't see in the dark.

I mean, I'm pretty sure rats also have a theory of mind. My data point is exactly one of the little buggers who used to be my pet. Whenever he was running around my room, he'd peek around to see if I was looking at him before jumping on the couch. If he couldn't see me, he'd jump. If he could, he wouldn't.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#465

Post by ysavir »

gadflyinyoureye wrote: post #455
ysavir wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think most animals are conscious but a qualitative distinction between humans and animals is very reasonable. Animals didn't land on the moon or discover quantum mechanics. Whatever it is that allowed humans to accomplish things like that is a worthy basis of a distinction. Is this not a very self-serving assertion, though? Pointing at things that we humans have accomplished and are proud of, and saying that sets…

I’m at a lost as to why I should care? Everything comes down to force. Those animals can opine all they want, but humans have the means, motive and opportunity to make them into tasty food. Their conscious or lack there of has no impact.

I'm not sure what this is responding to. Can you explain how this relates to the parent and grandparent messages?

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#466

Post by a_cardboard_box »

moi2388 wrote: post #398
nikkwong wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're over complicating it. When people generally talk about consciousness, they're talking about the phenomenology of awareness in the present moment. It's not really hard to define. It's difficult to establish whether or not an animal is conscious in the way that it's difficult to establish whether another person is conscious. The only evidence we have for consciousness is the fact that we personally exper…

Now you’ve just replaced “consciousness” with “awareness”. Self-awareness? Awareness of stimuli? Awareness of demarcation of animate and inanimate objects? I understand it sounds simple, but there are so many different systems interplaying to give rise to whatever definition of consciousness you give, it’s really hard to give exact definitions. Also, you still talk as if this “awareness in the moment” might be a simp…

When I say "consciousness", the concept that I mean isn't reducible to other concepts. It's a concept that can only be found through introspection. And it seems like many have noticed the same concept, so we can label it with a word. But we can't define it such that someone who hasn't already noticed the concept will understand it. We can only describe it in such a way that those who already noticed it can confirm we're talking about the same thing. I think the parent's comment has done this adequately, and I don't think it's a problem that the definition is incomplete.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#467

Post by bowsamic »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #454
bowsamic wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why am I being flagged for comments that should not be flagged at all?

From the site guidelines: > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes. > Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. > Eschew flamebait. > Please don't post shallow dismissals... That's why that comment was flagged. (To me personally, your comment was harsh enough to be worthy of downvoting, though I'm not sure I would have flagged it.)…

[flagged]

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#468

Post by qup »

ninetyninenine wrote: post #368
maxbond wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is also a misguided razor that people who self identify as rationalists often apply, which goes, "the most cynical or disenchanted answer is likely the correct one." An overcorrection to superstition, perhaps. I personally did this, and one of the symptoms was being overly skeptical of animal consciousness. People would tell me this dog was smart or that it was feeling a certain way, and I dismissed it,…

People identifying as rationalists are also often misguided. It’s a common trope among programmers who think they’re smart and think their intelligence leads to them being logical and unbiased. I hate to break it to you but if you think you’re smart most likely you are more biased than normal.

If a person were actually smart, what would you expect their opinion of their own intelligence to be?

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#469

Post by tomcam »

Anyone who's met my stupid stupid chickens would appreciate that the stupid stupid chickens can totally manipulate us by making pathetic sounds when we know we are near, so they can get treats. Pre-chicken it was obvious to me that dogs, dolphins, higher primates, etc. were conscious. But stupid stupid chickens? Yes, stupid stupid chickens, it turns out. I love them despite the fact that they are ruthlessly committed to training me.

All which is to say that objectively and scientifically speaking they are obviously conscious although stupid.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#470

Post by czl »

lo_zamoyski wrote: post #408
czl wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intelligence can be defined as the ability to accurately predict the future consequences of one's actions. And the only way to make such predictions is by having an internal model of how the world works. Moreover, for social species that live and evolve in groups, like humans, this world-model must crucially include a model of oneself and other minds. We need to be able to predict how others will think and react to o…

> Intelligence can be defined as the ability to accurately predict the future consequences of one's actions. That's not what is most essential to intelligence. What is most characteristic of intelligence is intentionality. From there, we can talk about inference, analysis, and so on, which presuppose intentionality. Whereas most animals maintain only a concrete image of the world they encounter, human beings can abst…

>What is most characteristic of intelligence is intentionality.

Intentionality refers to the quality of being directed toward an objective or purpose. It involves conscious decision-making and goal-directed behavior. Given that insect have intentionally do you consider insects intelligent?

While intentionality might motivate and guide our actions, the ability to foresee the results of these actions is what defines intelligent decision-making. Prediction requires a deep understanding of cause and effect, which is a hallmark of intelligence. When we predict, we infer potential outcomes based on our knowledge and reasoning. This process involves not just abstract thinking but also practical application. Accurate prediction involves the synthesis of various cognitive functions, including inference, analysis, and reasoning.

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