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The window for great-grandmothers is closing

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Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#461

Post by zachmu »

dotnet00 wrote: post #309
zachmu wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is the story people tell themselves, but as far as I can tell it's mostly just a story. Kids are resilient and don't need the material wealth college educated people tend to assume they will to have a good childhood. And as for parents, there's really a lot to be said for raising kids while you're young and energetic, it's just easier. The problem is that it's nearly impossible to convey to a childless p…

This sentiment that it's nearly impossible to convey the meaning it provides is always irritating to hear. It's an extremely condescending idea to have, when the meaning it gives people is pretty obvious to see in siblings and friends/coworkers who do have children. But that's just more reason to want to wait until you feel ready to take on the job. I've seen how my sibling changed upon starting a family, I've seen h…

And yet it's perfectly true. Sorry you feel condescended to. People who say this are relating their own experience of being parents and how they couldn't anticipate how much it would change them.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#462

Post by dotnet00 »

zachmu wrote: post #461
dotnet00 wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sentiment that it's nearly impossible to convey the meaning it provides is always irritating to hear. It's an extremely condescending idea to have, when the meaning it gives people is pretty obvious to see in siblings and friends/coworkers who do have children. But that's just more reason to want to wait until you feel ready to take on the job. I've seen how my sibling changed upon starting a family, I've seen h…

And yet it's perfectly true. Sorry you feel condescended to. People who say this are relating their own experience of being parents and how they couldn't anticipate how much it would change them.

It can be true that parents can feel that way, yet it is also true that not all parents feel that way, especially among younger parents, else abusive or neglectful parents would not be a thing.

Having a child may be meaningful to a parent, but it is not at all true that applies to all childless people. Continuing to insist on that anyway is just showing sheer disregard for the well-being of a child born to parents who turn out to not actually be all that concerned about parenthood.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#463

Post by BeFlatXIII »

tuatoru wrote: post #275
jwells89 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cost and support networks are both big factors here. 30-somethings are probably more likely to have replacement rate or more if it’s affordable to do so and there’s family/friends around to lend a hand, but few enjoy such circumstances. Things like remote work could’ve helped here, allowing couples to live near family instead of wherever the best employment prospects exist currently, but the RTO push prevented that.

The (lack of) social prestige for pregnancy and motherhood among UMC women is a bigger factor. Women have been indoctrinated to place career first and only. Try saying "soccer mom" with an admiring tone instead of a sneer if you want to understand this.

The sneer of "soccer mom" isn't that she's a mother busy raising children. It's that she's too busy shuffling the kids between enrichment activities to take the downtime to be their mother. That and her children are her personality.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#464

Post by BeFlatXIII »

zachmu wrote: post #144
decafninja wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternately, you could be giving both them and yourself a better quality of life by waiting until you’re more ready. Obviously you don’t have forever to do this.

I think this is the story people tell themselves, but as far as I can tell it's mostly just a story. Kids are resilient and don't need the material wealth college educated people tend to assume they will to have a good childhood. And as for parents, there's really a lot to be said for raising kids while you're young and energetic, it's just easier. The problem is that it's nearly impossible to convey to a childless p…

> don't need the material wealth college educated people tend to assume they will to have a good childhood

But you do need material wealth to launch them smoothly (a.k.a. minimize their college debt, so they aren't as financially disincentivized to make you grandchildren). A different metric from happy childhood or not.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#465

Post by pooper »

yaomtc wrote: post #311
mycologos wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want nobody to have more than two children. > It is ok for the population to shrink a little. The first idea is way more extreme than the second idea.

They didn't say "Nobody should be allowed to have more than two children". They simply have an opinion that people shouldn't, purposefully, have more than two children. Seems reasonable to me.

Yes, thank you. I'm not Mao. People should choose to have either no children Or ideally one or two children And not no children.

Ideally, we as a society should support people who choose to have one or two children, prioritizing these families over people who have half a dozen or more children. But that's because in my opinion people who have dozens of children have something wrong in their heads. If you choose to have a dozen children, you better be able to afford to raise them all on your own dime.

That being said, I really dislike means testing of any kind so I'd be ok with a social safety net for the wackos and their unfortunate children.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#466

Post by latexr »

jzb wrote: post #459
latexr wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you misunderstood completely. Under the OP’s proposal, you have people raising their grandkids, not their kids.

So if I understand: Starting today, a pair of 20-somethings has kids, hands them off to their parents to raise - OK, their parents had experience now they are doing double-duty, but they know what they're doing raising kids. Now... 20 years later, those children have kids and hand them off to their biological parents who ... have no experience raising children. Also, which grandparents? Mom's or dad's?

Ask the OP, I wasn’t the one who suggested the idea.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#467

Post by tuatoru »

triceratops wrote: post #420
tuatoru wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Children of immigrants rapidly absorb the core culture of their new country. Especially when in grants them greater independence. The upper classes in India are a rounding error, maybe the population of Spain at most. Edit: you are right that it's a trade-off. In Bangladesh keeping women at home may mean starvation, so they are grudgingly allowed to work.

28% of Indian students are enrolled in higher education. The gender split is 52:48 in favor of males.[1] For the US those numbers are 39% and 45:55 (more women than men).[2] Since they're from different sources the participation rates might not be directly comparable shrug but the gender stats should still be applicable. At least going by that, there doesn't appear to be a great deal of "lock your girls and women awa…

Sure, they go to college. Which makes the low labor force participation rate even more of a tragedy for them and the country.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#468

Post by vidarh »

zbrozek wrote: post #435
vidarh wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Housing costs have increased as much as they have because people can afford to bid them up because other things do not take up as much of income.

Those 'other things' are generally more optional than shelter, so you'll bid up shelter until you get it while sacrificing those other things. Inelastic demand and inelastic supply is a bad combo. We see affordability and population growth in places that allow housing.

We don't see population growth without immigration anywhere but third world countries any more, and consistently dropping there too as living standards increase.

While I agree it's a bad combo and could be better, there's nothing to support any notion that cheaper housing will be enough to increase fertility rates.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#469

Post by elzbardico »

em-bee wrote: post #125
jwells89 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a parent, but I feel the same about myself. Having a kid at 22 would’ve been a mess to say the least. Looking back at that age halfway through my 30s, at that point I wasn’t much more than an overgrown 16 year old that could legally walk into a bar who wouldn’t get his head screwed on quite right for another 6 years or so at minimum.

the component that is getting lost in our culture, which in other cultures is still more present is that grandparents play an active role in helping the young parents to raise their children. in chinese culture for example the young couple moves in with the husbands parents, and so grandparents are always around to give advice and help. when our first was born we moved to live a few km from the grandparents, and ther…

The boomer generation in general kind of broke this social contract. Too busy being eternal teenagers.

Re: The window for great-grandmothers is closing

#470

Post by em-bee »

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #332
em-bee wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the component that is getting lost in our culture, which in other cultures is still more present is that grandparents play an active role in helping the young parents to raise their children. in chinese culture for example the young couple moves in with the husbands parents, and so grandparents are always around to give advice and help. when our first was born we moved to live a few km from the grandparents, and ther…

I thought you were going to say it for a minute there - the cultural component that you speak of that I feel is missing in our US culture during the younger years is 'duty' I was also a mess in my 20s and i had a lot of growing up to do to prepare for kids. Yet. Even after kids, I didnt really grow up quickly enough until kids forced the issue. Having kids and being responsible for someone else who is solely deoenden…

well, i think it is or was more than duty. it was necessity because your children were there to take care of you in old age. (and i have seen that in action with the great grandfather of my kids)

and there is also a sense of purpose. with the same conviction that young people work to provide for their family, which is something they learn to do because everyone else is doing it, grandparents simply see their purpose as taking care of their grandkids. i think that's much more than just duty. its their reason to live.

this is in part demonstrated by the distraught reactions by the hopeful grandparents when there are no grandchildren coming. (based on one person sharing their experience with me)

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