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Why is it so hard to build an airport?

construction-physics.com

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Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#461

Post by com2kid »

pbsladek wrote: post #113
po wrote: post #30

If you fly into Tokyo you might come in via Narita Airport (NRT) which is actually quite a distance out from tokyo. Violence is extremely uncommon in modern Japan but NRT was the site of violent resistance over several decades. Opposition forces killed several police officers, rioted on several occasions and constructed a giant 200 ft tower to interfere with test flights. Hundreds of acts of vandalism have occurred o…

If flying into NRT and on the way to Tokyo, ~$200ish for the taxi ride. Ooops.

An uber from Sea-Tac airport into Seattle can easily reach $80, and almost $100 with tip.

Given how far NRT is from Tokyo, $200 doesn't seem too bad...

Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#462

Post by cyanydeez »

jtbayly wrote: post #411
balderdash wrote: post #358

I would be pretty upset if all of a sudden my house was under the flight path of a new airport (and the associated economic consequences) but I always find it surprising how annoyed people get that put a house near an airport and then complain about it, where one of my parents lives there is a small but fairly busy private airport that has been there close to a hundred years, so almost no one that lives by it now can…

This is not surprising if you think about it. You understand a new airport generating complaints based on loss of value. Have you considered what successfully getting an airport shut down might do for the nearby property owners? It's not uncommon for people to try to (often successfully) tell other people what they can and cannot do with their own land, simply for the benefit of the one trying.

Its akin to shortsellers actively campaigning against weak companies. Sure Theresa small burn of interest but if you can leverage and move the needle, profirs'

Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#463

Post by AtlasBarfed »

balderdash wrote: post #358

I would be pretty upset if all of a sudden my house was under the flight path of a new airport (and the associated economic consequences) but I always find it surprising how annoyed people get that put a house near an airport and then complain about it, where one of my parents lives there is a small but fairly busy private airport that has been there close to a hundred years, so almost no one that lives by it now can…

Yes, property values IS local politics.

Race tensions is fundamentally about property values.

Policing is about property values.

Road construction and transport infrastructure is about property values.

Bike paths and parks are about property values.

Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#464

Post by com2kid »

newhotelowner wrote: post #255
perlgeek wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the interesting ideas [...] is to run high-speed rail to Moses Lake Airport in Central Washington and just expand there. While reading this article, I thought about something like that too. Build an airport quite a while away from the big city, and provide a high-speed, maybe even maglev train there. Make it free for customers. Also, make it very inconvenient for passengers and staff to approach the airport…

I don't think you ever traveled international or your plane got delayed or cancelled. I don't want to carry 4 big bags in the train when I travel international I don't want to travel 30 miles if my plane get cancelled.

> I don't want to carry 4 big bags in the train when I travel international

Japan has this really cool service where you can get your bags picked up from your hotel room and taken to the airport or from the airport to your hotel room. It costs max around $20 USD.

> I don't want to travel 30 miles if my plane get cancelled.

My local airport (Sea-tac) is almost 30 miles from Seattle. It can easily take an hour driving to get there. I do agree that taking lots of luggage onto the light rail (WHICH DOESN'T DROP YOU OFF IN THE AIRPORT!!) is a bad idea.

But I am one of those people who despises checked luggage, since it can add another 30+ minutes to checking in. Compared to carry-on and TSA pre-check, where I can walk into the airport, through security, and be at my boarding gate in under 10 minutes.

But hey, Seattle is, as much as I love it, not a world class American city. Let's try NYC.

It can take over an hour to get from midtown Manhattan to JFK driving.

It also takes over an hour on the subway.

Oops, another bad example.

You know what, I am starting to think flying out of Boston Logan[1] is pretty nice.

But seriously, if you want a huge international airport, you need a lot of land, and you don't want to put that smack dab in the middle of a city, unless the land got paid for long ago, and even then, you'll be stuck with an airport that you cannot expand.

Meanwhile a train from Tokyo to Narita Airport is under 20 minutes.

[1] I legit like flying out of Boston Logan, the big dig was expensive but wow was it effective. Also shout out to Bogota Colombia for having super clean streets around its airport. It was an amazing second impression flying in (the first impression being how beautiful the city is from the sky!)

Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#465

Post by 2arrs2ells »

holmesworcester wrote: post #387
loteck wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This shouldn't be down voted, this type of arbitrage is common and the parties engaging in it know the baked in risks. It is no different from the common gambit of buying land outside of cities zoned as industrial or agricultural and then waging politics to have it rezoned as residential to dramatically increase its value.

The cool solution I've seen to this problem is to have some process for identifying the class of people who are affected by [locally burdensome thing] and then allowing the proponents (a business, the government, etc.) to negotiate some settlement with that affected class directly, with a majority vote used to accept the settlement. For example, everyone near the airport could get some property tax relief or share of…

This is Coase's Theorem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coase_theorem

Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#466

Post by com2kid »

rangestransform wrote: post #446
mdasen wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I certainly understand that sentiment, but a ton of people commute 30 miles daily (or more). Even if you live "near an airport", you probably live 15+ miles from an airport. Tottenham London to Heathrow is 24 miles by car. The British Museum to Heathrow is 19 miles. Columbia University on the Upper West Side to JFK is 17 miles. DC to Dulles is 26 miles. Downtown Denver is 25 miles to the airport. SF to SFO is 14 mile…

I will vote against whoever tried to make my flights less convenient

So demand rail service that drops you off inside the airport right at the security line.

Demand baggage pick-up and delivery services be offered.

Having someone pick up your checked luggage the day before you fly out, walking off a train right into the airport, and then getting on the plane w/o any fuss, is amazing.

VS the American Standard of waiting in a huge line to weigh your checked luggage, that you just paid an Uber 60-80 to carry for you.

Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#468

Post by doctor_eval »

jen729w wrote: post #432
balderdash wrote: post #358

I would be pretty upset if all of a sudden my house was under the flight path of a new airport (and the associated economic consequences) but I always find it surprising how annoyed people get that put a house near an airport and then complain about it, where one of my parents lives there is a small but fairly busy private airport that has been there close to a hundred years, so almost no one that lives by it now can…

I used to live above a Japanese bar in the centre of Melbourne, Australia. It was a busy street in a busy part of town. (Robot, for the locals.) Of course this place was sold, both to renters and buyers, as ‘hip’, it was ‘the inner-city lifestyle’, it was ‘everything on your doorstep’. And yet the neighbours. My god what cretins. Noise! On a weekend! They couldn’t bear it. I think it should be flat-out forbidden to c…

Robot is a great bar! I used to work in Flinders Lane, it’s the best part of Melbourne. Still grab lunch from Yen Sushi Noodles in Centre Place when I visit.

But yeah it would be noisy. Great spot to live for a while if you’re young. A lot of my favourite places didn’t make it post Covid tho.

Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#469

Post by thfuran »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #463
balderdash wrote: post #358

I would be pretty upset if all of a sudden my house was under the flight path of a new airport (and the associated economic consequences) but I always find it surprising how annoyed people get that put a house near an airport and then complain about it, where one of my parents lives there is a small but fairly busy private airport that has been there close to a hundred years, so almost no one that lives by it now can…

Yes, property values IS local politics. Race tensions is fundamentally about property values. Policing is about property values. Road construction and transport infrastructure is about property values. Bike paths and parks are about property values.

That's a massive oversimplification.

Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#470

Post by doctor_eval »

nox101 wrote: post #448
jen729w wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to live above a Japanese bar in the centre of Melbourne, Australia. It was a busy street in a busy part of town. (Robot, for the locals.) Of course this place was sold, both to renters and buyers, as ‘hip’, it was ‘the inner-city lifestyle’, it was ‘everything on your doorstep’. And yet the neighbours. My god what cretins. Noise! On a weekend! They couldn’t bear it. I think it should be flat-out forbidden to c…

I wonder if landlords should be required to disclose noise sources. As a renter there's no easy way for you to know that every Friday night the bar a block away has music so loud you can hear it in your apartment til 2am or that a band practices at the school down the street etc... You generally have about 5 minutes too look around a apartment and a few more to look around the neighborhood and then sign a contract fo…

To be fair to the GP, that part of Melbourne is very, very busy. But Melbourne is very expensive and you do have to compete with other renters. It’s a nightmare to find a good spot especially if you’re in a hurry.

I think another aspect is that to someone who lives in the area - like a real estate agent - it’s obvious that it would be noisy at night. Why else would you want live there? There are multiple bars in every laneway. Many of them are open until the wee hours.

So while I agree with the sentiment I think it’s difficult in practice.

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