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Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

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Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#461
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... what do you think real ac is?

https://www.thisoldhouse.com/heating-cooling/reviews/heat-pu... "Heat pumps use refrigerant to condition the air in your home by adding or removing heat through thermal exchange." "Air conditioning is a cooling system that circulates cool air into an enclosed space, creating a comfortable atmosphere and improving indoor air quality." "Air conditioners generally last longer than heat pumps because air conditioners onl…

My guy, a heat pump is effectively an air conditioner with some added reversing valves.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can still maintain the infrastructure with base fees In theory yes, but the grid has not used properly scoped base fees to pay for infrastructure. Delivery costs of power are more than half the total cost; to get to a base+generation model, you'd probably see monthly connection fees for Electricity in the $100+ range for many Americans.

I don't think there's any obligation for people's financial trickery to be sustainable. Like, a new power pole costs (say) $1000 regardless of how many watts are going through the wires attached to it. Someone has to pay the person that cut down the tree and hauled it to its final location money. That they loan you money on the infrastructure and you repay through using electricity isn't the actual cost model, it's j…

> Like, a new power pole costs (say) $1000 regardless of how many watts are going through the wires attached to it. Someone has to pay the person that cut down the tree and hauled it to its final location money.

That pole is carrying the power for, say, 100 people.

Half of them use a below-average amount of electricity. If you stick them with a $100/month fixed fee, they don't need a large solar/battery system to get off the grid entirely, so you've made that economical and that's what they do.

Now you have the same number of poles and half as many customers, so the fixed fee rises to $200/month, and more customers do the same thing. This is not going to a great place.

Meanwhile there is a rural road somewhere that only has two things on it. One is a large commercial operation and the other is somebody's house. Putting up poles along that road is going to cost $100,000, but the commercial operation is content to pay the entire amount because their alternative is buying land somewhere that it costs significantly more than $100,000 more. The house on the same road is not content to pay half of that and will just use their $50,000 to install a solar/battery system and have quite a bit left over, even though a model where they only pay for usage would get them to sign up, and the power company is installing the poles either way.

The problem we're looking at is that if you charge a fixed fee for a grid connection, low users opt out of the grid, and then the fixed fee goes up and creates a new set of low users. But if you charge for distribution per kWh, everybody installs local solar generation because it's cheaper than any generation method that has a significant distribution fee as part of the cost per kWh, which in turn raises the distribution component of the price per kWh even more. Under the first option, a large proportion of rural and suburban customers aren't going to want a grid connection at all. Under the second option, they'll take the grid connection but then only use it if local generation isn't available (i.e. it's cloudy) and the grid price per kWh at those times will be quite high. But that's plausibly the better of the two alternatives, because a grid connection with a high price per kWh will generally be better than losing power at those times, or having enough local storage/generation to prevent that from ever happening even in rare circumstances.

A third option is to charge everyone the fixed fee for the power grid and force them to take a grid connection even if that isn't economical, but that's even worse. You've essentially created a head tax with no way to avoid it even if you can't afford it, because you can't cancel your service and you can't pay less by reducing consumption.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are second order effects from natural gas use in an actual furnace that aren't taken into account in price of energy comparisons. A furnace has to either 1) exhaust out air initially drawn from the house which must be replaced by cold outdoor air coming into the house (this requires more heating of the house) 2) take in fresh cold air for combustion and exhaust that (which requires extra energy to heat up the c…

All modern furnaces I've seen take #2 - use air from outside. Despite that they can get to 99% efficient. It doesn't take much energy to heat up that cold air.

The cheap homebuilders around here (midwest) are still putting standard 80% efficiency gas furnaces which draw interior air in brand new homes.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#464
post #430
post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace your heat pump? People installing new heat pumps are going to see much higher efficiency. 50,000 BTU = 5.27528 * 10 ^ 7 J = 14.6 kWh / 6.6 kWh = COP of 2.2 at 50f which is absolutely terrible. Modern heat pumps should have a COP around 4 at those temperatures and 3 near freezing. Also, “Subtracting 10%” would mean your grid losses are 17%. “annual electricity transmission and distribution (T&D) losses average…

Its brand new! Also, should have been 60,000 BTU - its a 15 SEER unit.

15 SEER relates to cooling efficiency, what is its HSPF rating?

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve had one for three years. While I generally love it, it cools too fast, which means it sucks at removing humidity, actually increases it a little. The installer over-provisioned.

Does your thermostat allow you to "over cool" in order to get the humidity down to a comfortable level?

Trying to run it longer means it gets downright frigid and wastes electricity. Currently we just run a couple of dehumidifiers. Not ideal, looking into other solutions but it is cheapest and most practical.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#466
post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, doesn't states like MA import a not-insignificant amount of natural gas from elsewhere to convert to electricity? Would like to hear about what's more efficient: direct natural gas heating vs natural gas -> electricity -> heat pump...

Yes, and for nominally climate-driven reasons MA has constrained the construction of pipelines and other facilities that would allow the cheaper delivery of natural gas for cheaper electricity… thus discouraging consumers like me from moving to electrical utilities that would net reduce emissions.

It's probably more accurate to say the concerns are about the environment rather than climate per se. There's more to protecting than the environment than limiting carbon emissions. (I'm not saying they're right to make that tradeoff in this particular case.)

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#467
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, the heat pump will reduce energy use to maybe 1/3 of a gas furnace, but natural gas is something like 6x cheaper for the same amount of energy, so it is an expensive folly. If California is serious about this, they need to reign in the utilities to reduce prices and or stop the attacks on solar installation.

Utilities cost excesses in California are largely PG&E paying for its liability for causing wildfires in places where people probably shouldn’t live anyway. For example Silicon Valley Power which serves Santa Clara (or something like that) has rates that are literally half as much as PG&E. In Minnesota I’m paying for Xcel Energy’s mistakes in Texas.

It's not just about causing wildfires in places where people shouldn't live, but causing wildfires in places that no people actually live, but these places happen to be between other places where people live.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$20k for a heat pump is sky high, you better have gotten a 24 SEER2 state of the art fully variable system for that. If they sold you a 14 SEER1 for that then you got absolutely screwed.

Perhaps you know already, but a lot of the price is often the installation labor, not the device itself. Just as a data point, $20K is right in the ballpark for estimates you'll get for professional installation of a modern ≈3-ton forced-air 17SEER heatpump + air handler in the Seattle area.

Even in the expensive Bay Area, I got a quote of only $10k to install a heat pump. It was basically the same price to install a new gas furnace + AC for summer.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#469
post #349
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, the heat pump will reduce energy use to maybe 1/3 of a gas furnace, but natural gas is something like 6x cheaper for the same amount of energy, so it is an expensive folly. If California is serious about this, they need to reign in the utilities to reduce prices and or stop the attacks on solar installation.

In the continental US you get ~2x the heat from burning natural gas in a combined cycle turbine to run a heat pump than you would from using a high efficiency gas furnace. The market price of electricity vs gas varies quite a bit through time and various distortions of the market. Currently gas is cheap, but you want to compare historical averages when buying something that lasts 15+ years not simply look at current…

Sorry, I was comparing my existing gas furnace vs replacing my furnace with a heat pump.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#470
post #214
post #174

One of the big problems with heat pumps in New England is that our electricity costs 1.7x the US average ( https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph... ). If you're in the South, a heat pump makes perfect sense. You're going to want AC anyway and it'll be way more efficient and save a ton of money when you want heat. In most of the country, even if it gets cold your electricity prices are still a t…

Right, the heat pump will reduce energy use to maybe 1/3 of a gas furnace, but natural gas is something like 6x cheaper for the same amount of energy, so it is an expensive folly. If California is serious about this, they need to reign in the utilities to reduce prices and or stop the attacks on solar installation.

> If California is serious about this, they need to reign in the utilities to reduce prices and or stop the attacks on solar installation.

Why do you think electricity prices are high?

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