Why do programmers need private offices with doors? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#461

Post by j45 » Tue, Dec 19, 2023, 5:44 PM UTC

IKantRead wrote: post #316

esskay wrote: post #106

It has to be said, if you're employing programmers and making them sit in an openplan office you're willingly and knowingly making their job significantly harder, and their day worse. Open plan might work great for some types of work, but for highly technical and mentally taxing work it's quite litterally the worst possible working environment you could be providing. There's a reason that many programmers prefer to w…

Recent experience at a fairly young startup has shown me that open office culture has also started to breed a very different type of programmer. People will often be pairing nearly all day long, any claim that you need a moment to focus and think about a problem is met with perplexity, every idea should be shipped to prod asap, while tests exist the idea of performing basic QA/manual testing on your own work is only…

This is a war room approach that is reactive during the course of building.

Imagine insane last minute issues or something being entirely down.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#462

Post by sodapopcan » Tue, Dec 19, 2023, 5:44 PM UTC

ath3nd wrote: post #431

sodapopcan wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Listening to music while coding severely reduces my concentration, and I find it in no way to be a substitute for silence. Me too. I can't work with music in headphones as I inevitably start listening to it. It's weird that many people don't even consider this a possibility when recommending headphones. Well, I guess it's not weird as they just aren't affected by it the same way, but still.

We are all to "suck it up" because, for some reason, being constantly interrupted is something that we supposedly have to be okay with. I say no, let the busybodies and loudmouths adapt to us for a change.

> I say no, let the busybodies and loudmouths adapt to us for a change.

Hear Hear! Thought I've never had any luck with this.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#463

Post by nyc111 » Tue, Dec 19, 2023, 5:45 PM UTC

Not directly related but I noticed that I can be most productive and focus best in a cafe where there is a continuous white noise. Why doesn't this happen in an open office? Also as I see in 40's movies, the newsroom of newspapers were open offices and I can imagine concentrating there. That must be an interesting collection of noises, typwriters, telephone conversations, joking around etc. etc...

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#464

Post by bcrosby95 » Tue, Dec 19, 2023, 5:47 PM UTC

My favorite work environment is being in a team-sized conference room (3-6 people). Conversations tend to be relevant and I can tune out any that aren't.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#465

Post by ath3nd » Tue, Dec 19, 2023, 5:48 PM UTC

RandomLensman wrote: post #336

esskay wrote: post #106

It has to be said, if you're employing programmers and making them sit in an openplan office you're willingly and knowingly making their job significantly harder, and their day worse. Open plan might work great for some types of work, but for highly technical and mentally taxing work it's quite litterally the worst possible working environment you could be providing. There's a reason that many programmers prefer to w…

You have pretty noisy and messy environments where technically challenging programming and other taxing work happens successfully (e.g., some trading floor). How much do think the whole issue is self selection into preferred work environments?

There is a reason the stereotypical image of these guys is them chainsmoking, doing copious amount of drugs (to take the edge off), and throwing themselves out of high places.

Work happening "successfully" and people making money doesn't mean it's the most efficient or healthy way of working. I am happy to throw a % or two of productivity in the short term if my workers don't burn out in the long term.

Luckily, research clearly shows that the most successful work and the happiest employees happen in quiet places with deep focus.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#466

Post by Log_out_ » Tue, Dec 19, 2023, 5:48 PM UTC

kridsdale1 wrote: post #406

manishsharan wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just startups. I was once hired as a contractor for a major bank in Toronto who were desperate to ship a product, which was way past its promised delivery date. The AVP got an idea to put all of us in a conference room huddled around a conference table , because obviously us lazy programmers were slacking off in our cubicles and the crappy almost daily changing requirements were not to blame. The entire team bega…

My experience with Canadian “business man, doing business” culture supports this. Their lives are mostly modeling what business is supposed to look like. Nevermind it achieves nothing. When I go home to downtown Vancouver I’m startled at damn good-looking everyone is in their suits and pomade-hair, in great offices exuding power and dignity. But their GDP per capita is crap compared to us schlubs in Seattle. They mus…

Those programmers just don't get that they are part of a managerial Broadway musical. They won't even talk, and if they do not talk, how can they siiing.

Chat gpt write me a musical about micro management in software in 3 acts.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#467

Post by diyftw » Tue, Dec 19, 2023, 5:49 PM UTC

richardwhiuk wrote: post #441

diyftw wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That generalization certainly doesn't fit with this 1977 edition human. The loudest 24/7 thing in my house is the compressor on my fridge. Silence (and office doors) are priceless.

Aren't you just reinforcing the point?

"A person born in 1980s may be more used to 24/7 noise"

"1977 edition human" (born in 1977 for those who didn't grasp my turn-a-phrase. I hope that's close enough to 1980)

And I'm not used to constant noise. So, no.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#468

Post by FuriouslyAdrift » Tue, Dec 19, 2023, 5:50 PM UTC

esskay wrote: post #106

It has to be said, if you're employing programmers and making them sit in an openplan office you're willingly and knowingly making their job significantly harder, and their day worse. Open plan might work great for some types of work, but for highly technical and mentally taxing work it's quite litterally the worst possible working environment you could be providing. There's a reason that many programmers prefer to w…

The one time I had a heavy dev job (I mostly take sysadmin type roles) in an open floorplan, I ended up buying a motorcycle helmet with built in audio to isolate myself from distractions...it was mostly gregarious sporty (it was a sporting goods company), young people (I was the second oldest at the company at 32).

I was not well-liked at that job and was happy when they let me go.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#469

Post by giancarlostoro » Tue, Dec 19, 2023, 5:50 PM UTC

mgkimsal wrote: post #454

IKantRead wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recent experience at a fairly young startup has shown me that open office culture has also started to breed a very different type of programmer. People will often be pairing nearly all day long, any claim that you need a moment to focus and think about a problem is met with perplexity, every idea should be shipped to prod asap, while tests exist the idea of performing basic QA/manual testing on your own work is only…

> .... a fairly large amount of that "productivity" is fixing mistakes a more focused programmer would have avoided Holy cow this hits home. I've been on a number of teams like this going back years (decades) and ... I just don't get it. Had I been 'allowed' another 30 minutes, or an hour, or a day, on problem X... we'd have avoided weeks of unraveling problems later. But... no - gotta keep pressing on, hitting those…

Deadline Driven Development is foolish. Deadlines are good to have, but you cannot force good functioning software if more time is needed to craft it. You get what you pay for, you reap what you sow. If you just want to churn out code in unrealistic time spans instead of extended efforts, you're going to get a bad product. Instead, cut things that can come out later, have developers focus on polish. I would rather a very stable and polished MVP over a rushed dumpster fire as a dev an end-user who has seen some awful.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#470

Post by erik_seaberg » Tue, Dec 19, 2023, 5:50 PM UTC

macNchz wrote: post #219

gorgoiler wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open plan worked for me when there was a very clear contract between every stakeholder. Firstly, everyone had free, good quality, sound blocking headphones. Not just free as in standard equipment on your first day free. There were buckets of the things lying around and if you needed a new set you just grabbed some, no questions asked. VC funded opulence, yay! Secondly, there was an understanding amongst everyone on t…

I’ve seen this work tolerably well in an open space that’s entirely engineers or similar roles, assuming there are enough conference rooms for people to peel off to for meetings and calls, and you can establish the culture of the main room having a library-esque hush. As soon as people start having multi party conversations in the main space because the conference rooms are booked 100% of the time, or people whose jo…

Active noise cancellation is said to be improving, but it’s hard to go wrong with a big hunk of plastic if you can find a comfortable pair of closed-back circumaural phones. I’ve gone through about three pairs of HD 280. A former colleague would wear the same ear pro he uses at the gun range.