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Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding

nytimes.com

461–470 of 625 posts

Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding

#461
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the paper, Anthropic's superior safety approach was deliberately delaying release in order to avoid “advanc[ing] the rate of AI capabilities progress." OpenAI is criticized for kicking off a race for AI progress by releasing ChatGPT to the public. [1] https://cset.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/CSET-Decoding...

Having read the word soup of contradicting weasel words that make up Claudes "constitution", 'superior safety approach' has so many asterisks it could be a star chart. The only thing the garbage Anthropic has produced is superior is in making some people feel good about themselves. ( https://www.anthropic.com/index/claudes-constitution )

Im already out after the very first sentence.

> How does a language model decide which questions it will engage with and which it deems inappropriate?

This is what we mean by safety? Content moderation?

Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding

#462
post #225

The relevant passage from the paper co-written by board member Helen Toner: "OpenAI has also drawn criticism for many other safety and ethics issues related to the launches of ChatGPT and GPT-4, including regarding copyright issues, labor conditions for data annotators, and the susceptibility of their products to "jailbreaks" that allow users to bypass safety controls... A different approach to signaling in the priva…

I think this is heavily editoralized. if you look at the 3 pages in question that the quotes are pulled from (28-30 in doc, 29-31 in pdf), they appear to be given as examples in pretty boring academic discussions explicating the theories of costly signaling in the context of AI.It also has lines like:

"The system card provides evidence of several kinds of costs that OpenAI was willing to bear in order to release GPT-4 safely.These include the time and financial cost..."

"Returning to our framework of costly signals, OpenAI’s decision to create and publish the GPT4 system card could be considered an example of tying hands as well as reducible costs. By publishing such a thorough, frank assessment of its model’s shortcomings, OpenAI has to some extent tied its own hands—creating an expectation that the company will produce and publish similar risk assessments for major new releases in the future. OpenAI also paid a price ..."

"While the system card itself has been well received among researchers interested in understanding GPT-4’s risk profile, it appears to have been less successful as a broader signal of OpenAI’s commitment to safety"

And the conclusion:

"Yet where OpenAI’s attempt at signaling may have been drowned out by other, even more conspicuous actions taken by the company, Anthropic’s signal may have simply failed to cut through the noise. By burying the explanation of Claude’s delayed release in the middle of a long, detailed document posted to the company’s website, Anthropic appears to have ensured that this signal of its intentions around AI safety has gone largely unnoticed. Taken together, these two case studies therefore provide further evidence that signaling around AI may be even more complex than signaling in previous eras."

Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding

#463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not her job to overrule the people running the actual organization, 95% of the employees, and all of OpenAI's stakeholders without a good fucking reason.

From her perspective, she does have a good reason. And in what way was publishing the paper "overruling" the employees of the for-profit company? The board of the non-profit is beholden to their charter first and foremost

“From her perspective, she does have a good reason.”

Does she? In that case, perhaps she should tell someone what it is.

Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding

#464
post #225

The relevant passage from the paper co-written by board member Helen Toner: "OpenAI has also drawn criticism for many other safety and ethics issues related to the launches of ChatGPT and GPT-4, including regarding copyright issues, labor conditions for data annotators, and the susceptibility of their products to "jailbreaks" that allow users to bypass safety controls... A different approach to signaling in the priva…

Note that the quote about Anthropic is about Anthropic's desire to be perceived as a company that values safety, not a direct claim that Anthropic actually is safe, or even that it desires to value safety.

Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding

#465
post #203

None of the comments thus far seem to clearly explain why this matters. Let me summarize the implications: Sam Altman expelling Toner with the pretext of an inoffensive page ( https://cset.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/CSET-Decoding... ) in a paper no one read* would have given him a temporary majority with which to appoint a replacement director, and then further replacement directors. These directors would, nat…

In this instance, "Sam is trying to take over the Board on a flimsy basis" is an reasonable reason to remove him. Started leading discussions about whether she should be removed, is also very very far from actively working to remove her. This is amateur hour and considering what happened she probably should have been removed.

Leading discussions on whether someone should be removed is literally actively working to remove them.

Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding

#466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty heavily implied by OpenAI's charter: https://openai.com/charter It's weird to me that Helen is getting so much crap for upholding the charter. No one objected to the charter at the time it was published. The charter was always available for employees, investors, and customers to read. Did everyone expect it to be ignored when push came to shove? There's a lot of pressure on Helen right now from people who…

This charter doesn't have a sole interpretation, and shame on Helen for strong arming her view and ruining the lives of so many people. If there is something completely clear, its that OpenAI cannot uphold its charter without labour. She has ruined that, and thus failed in upholding the charter. There were many different paths to take, she took the worst one.

>her view and ruining the lives of so many people.

..and had Altman just accepted he was fired and walked away, OpenAI would have just looked bruised and not like the broken state it does now...

I don't think the current state for the employees is just on her. It's the result of both sides fighting for governance and willing to see the organization disabled if their side loses.

Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding

#467
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure you should get to have your cake and eat it too.

You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding the role of non-executive board members. In many cases they're industry experts / academics and in many cases those academics continue to publish papers that look objectively at the actions of all companies in their sphere of influence, including the one they're on the board of. It's _expected_ for them to publish this type of material. It's literally their job. Cheerlead…

They've admitted that they think it would be better to destroy open AI than to continue on its path, but how can an organization uphold its goals if it doesn't exist?

Imo you have to commit to working within an organization if you're on its board, you can't burn it down from within. I think it's less of an issue to try to remove the CEO if you don't agree with the direction they're taking, but this was obviously done in a sloppy manner in this case, and their willingness to destroy it makes me distrust them (not that my opinion matters per se).

Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding

#468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm much more interested in how Helen managed to get on this board at all." Indeed. This is far more interesting. How the hell did Helen and Tasha get on, and stay on, the board.

Helen Toner through her association with Open Philanthropy donated $30 Million dollars to OpenAI early on. That's how she got on the board. https://loeber.substack.com/p/a-timeline-of-the-openai-board

This makes it sound like it was her money, which is not the case. She worked for an organization that donated $30M and they put her on the board.

Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding

#469
post #203

None of the comments thus far seem to clearly explain why this matters. Let me summarize the implications: Sam Altman expelling Toner with the pretext of an inoffensive page ( https://cset.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/CSET-Decoding... ) in a paper no one read* would have given him a temporary majority with which to appoint a replacement director, and then further replacement directors. These directors would, nat…

I mean, here is a relevant passage from the paper, linked in another comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38373684 If I were the CEO of OpenAI, I'd be pretty pissed if a member of my own board was shitting on the organization she was a member of while puffing up a competitor. But the tone of that paper makes me think that the schism must go back much earlier (other reporting said things really started to spl…

> If I were the CEO of OpenAI, I'd be pretty pissed if a member of my own board was shitting on the organization she was a member of while puffing up a competitor.

Considering what's in the charter, it seems like she didn't do anything wrong?

> We will attempt to directly build safe and beneficial AGI, but will also consider our mission fulfilled if our work aids others to achieve this outcome.

>We commit to use any influence we obtain over AGI’s deployment to ensure it is used for the benefit of all, and to avoid enabling uses of AI or AGI that harm humanity or unduly concentrate power.

more here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38372769

Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding

#470
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not her job to overrule the people running the actual organization, 95% of the employees, and all of OpenAI's stakeholders without a good fucking reason.

But it literally is

She needs a legitimate reason. Without one, her actions could well be illegal. Being on a board doesn’t mean you can act with impunity or that you don’t owe anyone an explanation. You can’t accept bribes, commit fraud, etc. If you don’t explain yourself in a high stakes situation like this one where you are burning down the organization you claim to be safeguarding the interests of, people are rightfully going to start asking questions about what your motivations are.
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