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Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

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Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

#461

Post by fzeroracer »

dehrmann wrote: post #376

I get the impression there's an attitude from the newer generation of tech workers--the ones that are more progressive and less libertarian--about their right to unionize. They were so interested in union politics and the reading about the glory days of unions that they overlooked their current situation. You don't sell a company to break up a union and lay off half the staff. Bandcamp wasn't a good fit any more, and…

They (Epic) literally bought Bandcamp as fuel against their ongoing litigation vs Apple. They've outright admitted so [1]. This wasn't about Bandcamp being a 'good fit' or 'overstaffing'. This was because now that the litigation was over, they had no more use for the bludgeon they bought.

[1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/04/epic-games-drags-ban...

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

#462

Post by onethought »

drekipus wrote: post #460
onethought wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not a meme. You do something that is sold for X and you are paid X-Y. y is your surplus value. True you possibly couldn’t get that y on your own. But someone got it, and it wasn’t you.

> You do something that is sold for X and you are paid X-Y. If my neighbor wants a new fence (the Y), offers me $50 to dig a hole (the X-Y) to put a fence pole in. I dig a hole, i get $50. He gets closer to a fence. we have both profited, who is exploited? Or if you want to go even more basic: he wants a fence, he pays me $500 to build a fence, i build the fence and get $500. who is exploited? Note these are real exa…

That’s not wage based labour. You are an owner/operator in that scenario, and you fully realised the value.

The value of the fence is X and you got X.

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

#463

Post by silenced_trope »

banannaise wrote: post #359
silenced_trope wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You posted that yourself. You're spamming the same comment over and over while trying to create the illusion that it's a popular opinion.

I'm not at all "spamming" it, I posted it where it was relevant as an example of a problem I had with recent union activity?

I don't understand the issue with that? It's just as relevant to this thread's conversation.

I might be "double dipping" by using the same example? But I hardly consider a second post about the same topic to be spamming.

So...sorry for not leaving to find a different example that I found relevant to the conversation? But it was pretty much the same conversation about the same issues people may have with unions.

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

#464

Post by [deleted] »

chimeracoder wrote: post #323
ramesh31 wrote: post #307

I'm the most pro-union person you'll ever meet, but this is so cringe. Strikes work when you can shut down a factory and physically keep the scabs from getting in with a picket line. Not so much when you're a remote tech worker who can be instantly replaced by an equally competent third-worlder for $2/hr. You gotta know where your bargaining power lies, or you're just being an idiot.

> I'm the most pro-union person you'll ever meet, but this is so cringe. Strikes work when you can shut down a factory and physically keep the scabs from getting in with a picket line. Not so much when you're a remote tech worker who can be instantly replaced by an equally competent third-worlder for $2/hr. You gotta know where your bargaining power lies, or you're just being an idiot. You can't call yourself "the mo…

[deleted]

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

#465

Post by fsckboy »

smcl wrote: post #63
fsckboy wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Applying stereotypes to a person is not the same as saying a phenomenon exists (in this case they said nearly-exclusively) in country. By way of examples: "Americans are fat" is a (negative) sterotype. "Americans get poor value for money in healthcare" isn't.

why did you dishonestly add a completely unrelated idea to make your point? Because you couldn't make it with the case at hand? Americans are subjected to decades of mind-warping propaganda (in a way that other countries are not?) is not a stereotype?

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

#466

Post by epivosism »

elygre wrote: post #455
epivosism wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By definition unions have local monopolies and can't be attacked. In a well-run truly free economy, corporations don't have that. my view of the power distributions and their results * company town, one company enslaving all workers To your point about house ownership being protected by law, but job ownership not being, I think it's a matter of contracts. Selling someone and helping them own it forever is fairly triv…

> By definition unions have local monopolies and can't be attacked. I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “local monopolies”, so this comment may be a bit off base: My Norwegian employer (<1000 employees) deals with four different unions and a bunch of un-unionized people. (All with no problem)

Ah thanks. My basic knowledge of the US was that most workplaces have a single union, and that in many cases membership is very high. IE police, teachers, doctors, lawyers, auto workers. But looking it up now it's not as clear. Yes the case you mention of multiple unions and also individuals seems possibly more balanced! Thanks.

I'd like to see a comparative analysis of how the legal and social infrastructure for unions differs in outcomes between all the different ways it has been done across countries, industries, and time.

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

#467

Post by epivosism »

epivosism wrote: post #466
elygre wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By definition unions have local monopolies and can't be attacked. I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “local monopolies”, so this comment may be a bit off base: My Norwegian employer (<1000 employees) deals with four different unions and a bunch of un-unionized people. (All with no problem)

Ah thanks. My basic knowledge of the US was that most workplaces have a single union, and that in many cases membership is very high. IE police, teachers, doctors, lawyers, auto workers. But looking it up now it's not as clear. Yes the case you mention of multiple unions and also individuals seems possibly more balanced! Thanks. I'd like to see a comparative analysis of how the legal and social infrastructure for uni…

For example, the current UAW strike seems very damaging. They're attacking the very nature of the auto companies and saying they don't even have the right to make money or try to profit, and demanding huge wage increases and further union expansion to include the battery plant.

Meanwhile the companies are losing 30k+ per EV sold and are only about 10% of Tesla's size, and Tesla has something like an 18% profit margin even after price reductions.

The unions might win locally but put the companies out of business in five or ten years by slowing them down. So, this structure of a single union led by a guy who's already independently wealthy and old and for whom the long term survival of the union doesn't matter monetarily, and the fact that the companies simply have to deal with him, and for electoral reasons both Biden and Trump showed up on the picket lines... I would quit if I were an exec there. Feels like they'll be driven out of business and bailed out either publicly or secretly within ten years. Market tracking this: https://manifold.markets/Ernie/will-ford-gm-or-stellantis-be...

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

#468

Post by baggy_trough »

onethought wrote: post #217
baggy_trough wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mean because the company values my labor more than they pay me, that's exploitation? How about when I buy eggs from the grocery and value them more than they cost me, so that there is consumer surplus. Is that exploitation?

Exploiting an egg? Having people produce something and not paying them what it is worth so someone else can profit - is exploitation. Remove the prejudice from the word. Just like if you “exploit a coal seam” or “exploit sunlight to generate electricity”. You are deriving value from something where the benefit is more than the cost. When the exploitation crosses a human, it (rightly) takes on a negative connotation.

Exploiting the egg farmer, I suppose. Just seems nonsensical. Every trade benefits both parties more than the trade value. Otherwise the trade wouldn't happen.

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

#469

Post by drekipus »

onethought wrote: post #462
drekipus wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You do something that is sold for X and you are paid X-Y. If my neighbor wants a new fence (the Y), offers me $50 to dig a hole (the X-Y) to put a fence pole in. I dig a hole, i get $50. He gets closer to a fence. we have both profited, who is exploited? Or if you want to go even more basic: he wants a fence, he pays me $500 to build a fence, i build the fence and get $500. who is exploited? Note these are real exa…

That’s not wage based labour. You are an owner/operator in that scenario, and you fully realised the value. The value of the fence is X and you got X.

The value of the fence is different for different people.

For me it's $500, for my neighbour it's $5000 - because it stops rabbits from eating his garden and stray dogs or whatever.

If it's $5000 value to my neighbour, should I have charged more even though I would've accepted $500? Who would have been exploiting who then?

This is directly analogous to my employer as well, except replace "neighbour" with boss, and "fence" with code. It's still a voluntary trade.

Re: Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off

#470

Post by BonoboIO »

carstenhag wrote: post #459
BonoboIO wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also there programs like „Kurzarbeit“ rough translation would be „Shortened Work“. Where you get 60%-85% of your salary (after tax) without work or with way less ours, if the employer has no work/less work (like covid period). It’s payed mostly by the state. Up to 12 month. Regulations are strict. Prevents layoffs and helps starting the upturn of production like automobile industry, where it takes months or half a ye…

Kurzarbeit is funded by unemployment insurance, which you pay when you have a job. It is correct though that during covid, the funds ran a bit empty and the government had to fill it up again with unrelated tax money (afaik)

My mistake. You are correct.
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