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Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

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Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#461

Post by dralley »

foverzar wrote: post #333
hypertele-Xii wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was born when the Soviet Union fell. All my childhood I watched media like James Bond and played games like Command & Conquer about Russian invasion, saw my extended family suffer the generational trauma of war, and being male, am forced by threat of imprisonment to personally accept social responsibility for sacrificing my life defending our country from Russian invasion, I'm pretty fucking relieved the nightmare…

> I'm pretty fucking relieved the nightmare is over. Ouch. Genuinely hate to be the bearer of bad news, but everything I know about politics (especially from Russian perspective) tells me that this is only the beginning and uncorking of a potential conflict. I assume, you do not expect that NATO membership would put Finland into a direct hot confrontation with Russia, thus turning into a kind of a self-fulfilling pro…

>I assume, you do not expect that NATO membership would put Finland into a direct hot confrontation with Russia, thus turning into a kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Moldova, invaded (1990) and occupied. Georgia, invaded (2008) and occupied. Ukraine, invaded (2014, 2022) and occupied.

Finland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland: Not invaded, not occupied.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#462

Post by dralley »

coffeebeqn wrote: post #328
INTPenis wrote: post #157

As a Swede this makes me happy, partially because Finland shares a lot of their border with Russia and can now feel safe knowing they have the might of 30 nations behind them, but also because we're now surrounded by NATO countries. So no need for us to join, right? Right?! Let's remain neutral and a free haven for political dissidents and potential refugees of the future, right?!!

The old joke goes that swedens ground forces are Finland and that’s why they only have an Air Force and a navy

Sweden also has a hilarious(ly large) amount of armored vehicles for the size of their army.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#463

Post by dralley »

carlosjobim wrote: post #329
thehappypm wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia literally invaded Finland last century

[flagged]

>Yes, and for the same reasons they are invading Ukraine now! They feared German attacks through Finland and decided it was better to invade first, just as they fear American attacks through Ukraine and decided to invade first.

Next you'll argue that they feared German attacks through Poland, and that's why they invaded Poland alongside the Germans.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#464

Post by Gravityloss »

lolinder wrote: post #120
ElectricalUnion wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you can count "non-NATO" when NATO did not exist yet.

The point is that Finland matters a lot to Russia. The border with Finland is huge, geographically hard to defend, and right next to Russia's capitol. Finland's maritime zones join with existing NATO states to block Russia from operating in much of the Baltic (a process that would be completed when Sweden joins). Finland joining NATO is more than a shrug for Russia.

Moscow is nowhere close to Finland. St Petersburg is. Most of Russian border area near Finland is just forest.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#465

Post by dijit »

red-iron-pine wrote: post #400
dijit wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like all things such as this, it's controversial and there is no such thing as a unified vision. For some people, yes... In fact US involvement is largely a controversial topic because joining NATO, to some people and politicians, is tantamount to putting US military bases in your country. The reality is, when people talk about the benefits of NATO they will strongly lean on the fact that it's many countries in a pac…

> Decidedly not hiding behind the coat-tails of the US- in fact the US involvement, at least in political circles, is generally seen as a net-negative. Too bad their funding didn't match that rhetoric until after Russia was already invading Ukraine. It'll be years yet before Germany's military will be up to snuff, and outside of France, the UK, and Poland, most of the NATO armies would struggle if they encountered an…

2% of GDP is the recommended amount, Ukraine managed to hold them back before financial aid came to bear with around 3%.

UK spends 2.2% (an all time low!), France just under 2%. These are much larger economies so expenditure is definitely greater than Ukraines in absolute terms.

Are you suggesting that they should pay more? Why? Seems like the current amount is effective.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#466

Post by relaxing »

machiaweliczny wrote: post #268
yeahwhatever10 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that how NATO is spoken about in Europe, that it is the might of 30 nations and not just the US?

If US backs from NATO expect nukes in every country. It's already bad for us in Poland to not have nukes and capability to nuke Moscov at will. We were developing nukes in 80s but guy got assasinated (either RU or US).

> We were developing nukes in 80s but guy got assasinated (either RU or US).

Link? I’d love to read that story.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#467

Post by INTPenis »

tpmx wrote: post #445
INTPenis wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but then it's game over. I used to worry about nukes, especially with all the suicidal people in the world, but then I realized that it's not worth worrying about because there's no way out. Anyone launches a nuke and it's game over, MAD.

It's not game over for the world if e.g. Russia nukes some remote part of Sweden/Gotland with a low yield bomb tomorrow.

So which propaganda should we believe? The Gotland story that all pro-NATO people use today, or the MAD story from the cold war?

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#468

Post by [deleted] »

INTPenis wrote: post #467
tpmx wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not game over for the world if e.g. Russia nukes some remote part of Sweden/Gotland with a low yield bomb tomorrow.

So which propaganda should we believe? The Gotland story that all pro-NATO people use today, or the MAD story from the cold war?

[deleted]

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#469

Post by majkinetor »

The_Colonel wrote: post #439
majkinetor wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you so sure G7 countries are 100% honest?

Institutions in democratic countries are much more independent of political pressure. It might still happen, but there's a high chance that it will come to light sooner rather than later. Whistle-blowers don't have to fear the same repercussions as in autocratic states.

> Whistle-blowers don't have to fear the same repercussions as in autocratic states.

Its amazing that you parot that nonsence while Assange rots in prison and Snowden is hiding for a full decade.

Those that fire "whataboutism cannon" arguments etc. are equally bad. Nobody is honest (or rational) here, lets not pretend otherwise, even little kids understand better. It is what it is, its human nature I guess. I don't have a solution, except that you have to accept and adapt to that sort of game, nothing more or less, especially not thinking you have some sort of moral higher ground.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#470

Post by The_Colonel »

majkinetor wrote: post #469
The_Colonel wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Institutions in democratic countries are much more independent of political pressure. It might still happen, but there's a high chance that it will come to light sooner rather than later. Whistle-blowers don't have to fear the same repercussions as in autocratic states.

> Whistle-blowers don't have to fear the same repercussions as in autocratic states. Its amazing that you parot that nonsence while Assange rots in prison and Snowden is hiding for a full decade. Those that fire "whataboutism cannon" arguments etc. are equally bad. Nobody is honest (or rational) here, lets not pretend otherwise, even little kids understand better. It is what it is, its human nature I guess. I don't h…

Neither Assange nor Snowden were leaking political manipulations in the statistical office. Please don't derail the conversation.
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