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Grand jury votes to indict Donald Trump

nytimes.com

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Re: Grand jury votes to indict Donald Trump

#461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite your disclaimers, this seems to be in bad faith given that “all they’ve got” implies he’ll never be indicted again. Also, Al Capone was indicted for what?

> Despite your disclaimers, this seems to be in bad faith given that “all they’ve got” implies he’ll never be indicted again I'm sorry, I'll try to reword it to come across differently. My whole question is: Why hasn't he been indicted of bigger/harsher crimes already?

> Why hasn't he been indicted of bigger/harsher crimes already?

I think that's a perfectly reasonable question. The basic answer I'd give is that the bigger/harsher a crime is the longer it takes to build as a case.

The bigger or harsher a crime is, it usually has more protections and requirements in order to prove. It takes longer to gather the relevant evidence, longer to put together a theory of the case, and longer to button everything down and present to a grand jury.

It's kind of like asking why it takes developers longer to build the biggest/coolest features in a video games. It's a lot more work!

This was also a question that came up quite frequently when the first Jan 6th defendants were charged. The first wave of defendants were charged with things like "trespassing" and other fairly mild charges. A lot of people were upset about that. But they just came first because they were much easier cases to proves and make. Eventually more serious charges such as "assault with a deadly weapon", "obstructing congress" and "seditious conspiracy" were later charged and convicted in front of a jury.

So, I generally wouldn't be surprised to see the easier/simpler cases come before more complicated cases. That's not to say that he will be charged with bigger/harsher crimes. Maybe the facts won't bear those cases out, and they won't be charged. But the ordering doesn't seem like it should be particularly surprising.

Re: Grand jury votes to indict Donald Trump

#462
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Quick question, who is the most criminal president in US history? Your post is a lot of meta talk and very short on actual....crimes. The idea behind this indictment is that Trump broke the law as a citizen. Not that he did stuff in office that people dislike. Which law did Obama break which you think he evaded prosecution for on account of being president. Please be specific.

[flagged]

> A lesser known book that is far more scholarly and worth of your time is “Liberty’s nemesis: The unchecked expansion of your state” by John Yoo and Dean Reuter. I also do like the more polemical “ Faithless Execution: Building the Political Case for Obama s Impeachment” by Andrew MC Carthy If I had to name the scandals, there’s 1. IRS Scandal that’s so well

I prefer politico-legal advocacy books where fewer than half of the authors are war criminals, but that could just be me. (I also prefer such books where none of the authors are Federalist Society members, but I’m a bit more flexible on that than the preceding preference…)

Re: Grand jury votes to indict Donald Trump

#463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's kind of interesting because, according to a lot of other people (whether they are speaking factually or in an opinionated fashion), Trump has managed to avoid a lot of laws (inciting an insurrection, etc.). Why is this hush money thing the biggest law a Grand jury is able to stick on him? If he's supposedly guilty for so many other things, why is this all he's been indicted on the past few years? Genuinely askin…

I get the impression that there's no explanation required for how all the forces of the most powerful government in the world and its intelligence agencies, which are the largest, best financed, and since 9/11 least restrained in the world can't prove the liberal claims of a vast array of crimes that a slightly stupid wrestling valet game show host who largely lived off branding agreements with real estate developers…

> how all the forces of the most powerful government in the world and its intelligence agencies, which are the largest, best financed, and since 9/11 least restrained in the world can't prove the liberal claims

It's not the job of all those intelligence agencies to do that. This is a law and order question, which must be handled by the legal system, not the NSA and CIA.

Re: Grand jury votes to indict Donald Trump

#464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. It feels a lot like the indictment of Al Capone. His lawyers were always concentrating on the big picture but they ignored the small stuff and the government was able to catch him on tax evasion. Getting indictment of any sort can lead to larger ones.

I see this alot. Donald Trump isn't Al Capone,and the analogy fails enormously. Donald Trump is a former president of the United States. He's beloved by his base in quasi-religious way, even across the globe. Italy had parade with a "God-emperor Trump". Trump cannot be treated with like Al Capone. He has run as the anti-establishment candidate, and by god you better have a bulletproof case on him or you have just ang…

Potentially angering millions of people is not a compelling reason to not pursue criminals through your legal system, of course.

> He literally won half the country ...

Well that's not true, no matter how you slice it, or which election you look at.

In neither did he win more than 50% of the vote (2016 it was 46.1% of voters, compared to 48.2% who voted for Hillary - and in 2020 it was 46.8%, compared to the 51.3% for Joe).

And while that sounds tantalisingly close enough to half, it overlooks the fact that in those two elections, respectively, only 59% and then 70% of eligible voters (or 54% and 55% of age-and-citizenship-eligible-but-not-registered) actually voted.

So that means that you're looking at less than half of roughly 2/3's of the voting population -- a demographic that in turn is only around 3/4 of 'the country'.

He literally, therefore, won about 20% of US citizens, or 25% of eligible voters.

> ... his rallies ALWAYS have huge turnsouts.

That's neither true or compelling. Garry Glitter and Elvis used to have huge crowds.

Re: Grand jury votes to indict Donald Trump

#465
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, paying money to someone to keep them quiet isn’t necessarily illegal (i think.. a lawyer’s knowledge would be appreciated here), but trying to write it off as legal fees seems to be the issue. i imagine there are tax implications, as well as what pool of cash the money was paid from (i.e. if it was from campaign money). it’s impossible to say for certain what the exact issue is until the charges are revealed

It’s just so classless. Back in the day you just turned to a rich supporter and they wrote the check directly (Kennedy, Nixon, Reagan, Clinton, Bush). No need to need to circumvent paperwork with Federal declarations on them. Capone gotta Capone…

Actually... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/31/hillary-clin...

Re: Grand jury votes to indict Donald Trump

#466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just need a mental gut check after reading this comment. Do people not think this is political?

When it comes to Trump, people seem to be blind to the effects of soft power. Trump is beloved by his base in a way no other president in the last 100 years is. The danger of this half-assed prosecution to the republic is fucking enormous, I'm actually scared.

What about the rule of law? Isn't it important? Isn't it possible that Trump committed a crime and should be prosecuted?

Re: Grand jury votes to indict Donald Trump

#467

I've scrolled through the top ~10 or so comments, and none of them, describe or comment on the nature of the charges against Trump. To be fair to the commenters, most stories are vague. The charges relate to hush money payments to Stormy Daniels, but hush money is not a crime. It's also not a crime to have an affair with Stormy Daniels. So the most salacious parts of the story are not what the crime is. My understand…

It's too early to say if it's a weak case because we just don't know the details. There are (AFAIK unconfirmed) reports that there are 34 charges in the indictment. You wouldn't get that just from the Stormy Daniels payoff so, if true, there's more to this indictment. Maybe related to the Trump Organization fraud? We can only speculate.

This will be unsealed when Trump is processed and arraigned. I believe this is set for Tuesday. Note that processing includes the mug shot, fingerprinting and DNA.

My understanding is the payoff was upgraded to a felony because it had to be. If it were a misdemeanour it would be beyond the statute of limitations. So this isn't even a case where the prosecutor has "insurance" with a lesser charge. A felony seems to require actual intent, as in knowing this would impact the election. Whose to say it wasn't done to protect his marriage, for example? Of course, there may be evidence to support this.

But I have trouble believing the Manhattan DA would indict just on this (alleged) offence. There has to be more to this. Hopefully we'll learn a lot more next week.

Re: Grand jury votes to indict Donald Trump

#468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The theory as I understand it is that the payment was a large unreported contribution to his presidential campaign. It's not legal to do that, and the prosecutors believe they can demonstrate that's what happened.

Campaign finance violates are a dime a dozen. I don't think any serious candidate didn't have values similar or greater than what's discussed in this case. None of them got indicted criminally they all just paid fines. `The commission documents said Perkins Coie — where a partner at the time, Marc Elias, was representing the Clinton campaign — paid Fusion GPS slightly more than $1 million in 2016, and the law firm wa…

If they're a dime a dozen (I don't think they are), then we should either make sure to provide high visibility instances in order to dissuade others from breaking the law, or we should change the laws if we don't think they are worth enforcing.

Re: Grand jury votes to indict Donald Trump

#469
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Quick question, who is the most criminal president in US history? Your post is a lot of meta talk and very short on actual....crimes. The idea behind this indictment is that Trump broke the law as a citizen. Not that he did stuff in office that people dislike. Which law did Obama break which you think he evaded prosecution for on account of being president. Please be specific.

[flagged]

>“Liberty’s nemesis: The unchecked expansion of your state” by John Yoo

That's awfully rich coming from a guy who signed off on warrantless wiretapping on American soil, "enhanced interrogation techniques", and believes in "Unitary Executive Theory".

Re: Grand jury votes to indict Donald Trump

#470

To play devil's advocate a little bit. From a structural perspective, it was pretty much impossible for the courts to recruit any jury that wouldn't be biased. Furthermore, the case was in New York, which is a very democratic city. I would be surprised if any jury picked from there wasn't biased and wouldn't have convicted him of any crime the judge put in front of them. To be perfectly clear, I am not a fan of Donal…

> To be perfectly clear, I am not a fan of Donald Trump, and personally think he is likely guilty. I'm just commenting on a specific aspect of the case that I find interesting.

Why is it necessary to state this? I find these kind of statements very interesting. They tell us a lot about unspoken rules, societal taboos, Overton windows etc etc

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