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Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

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461–470 of 607 posts

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#461

NBC suit and mask is starting to go from "crazy prepper territory" to sane supply keeping.

We live in a country where everything important is owned and controlled by billionaires or hedge funds who also control the government via bribery. Events like this make me think that it's much, much crazier to trust the government to keep us safe.

A lot of people living in a small town in Ohio felt the same. Just stay away from the urbanization and cities and the government won't bother you... until a quasi-national freight train comes rolling through your town with a literal chemical dumpster fire in tow.

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing on the ontology of capital: once enough capital (billions, trillions) is gathered in one single control point there is a phase transition: from a means towards an end (build X, destroy Y) it becomes a manner of escaping reality: with enough (crony or not) capital you can keep afloat a business no matter how bad it is, how badly run, how useless or how dangerous the products. Not that 'there is no skin in th…

Whereas with government, you can keep afloat a government no matter how bad it is, how badly run, how useless or how dangerous it is. Except, as opposed to a company, it can’t crash like Enron or be threatened by competition. It doesn’t even need to fight to stay afloat.

You can't. At some point disaster and dumb leadership conspire to push the people and elite to revolution. We're no where near that now, but don't be fooled that governments are untoppable. They aren't. Every former regime had its peak.

You can see how structural faults in US government could produce the tinder. The threefold and interdependent issue of the US Senate and subsequently Electoral College resulting in Presidential and Legislative and ultimately Judicial representation by a smaller and smaller group of constituents. The reason we have legitimacy narratives today stems from this very structural fault.

But tinder alone does not produce a fire. An unforeseen event poised to exploit the flaws of the fault and uniquely incompetent leadership conspire to make régime ancien.

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I used to do that. Then I realized that it is always a conspiracy theory until it is too late. If you are potentially impacted, you have to do your own homework, and learn from your mistakes.

I think it is still a good heuristic that most people should follow. Step 1: do I need to have an informed opinion Step 2: Do I need that opinion NOW Step 3: WHAT do I need to know NOW There is a vast amount of conspiracy theorizing that people could avoid by following this approach.

Step 4: Always carry a towel

/s

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

There probably already is 250,000 gallons (if it was 10 cars and all 10 converted perfectly to HCl, and all of it went into the water supply) into a water table of, lets be conservative with 10 billion gallons, is 0.00002% concentration or .02ppm Compare this to your stomach, which has an hydrochloric acid concentration of 5000ppm. So yes, I would have no issue with it. All the water you drink mixes with a much highe…

HCl itself isn't going to be a direct issue in the water supply. HCl interaction with all those other things in the environment that were otherwise inert is the big problem here. If you dump your HCl in a limestone environment, we'll you'll dissolve a bunch of rocks. It gets more problematic when there heavy metal compounds get dissolved into solution and suddenly people can't use their wells or municipal water has to shut down or work extra hard at filtration.

Problem is the only way you know if this is occurring is constant sampling and testing over the affected region by a competent and trustworthy set of testing groups.

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#465
post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has echos of the Flint water crisis all over it. The "trust authorities" crowd would have happily let Flint residents drink yellow water until lead poisoned an entire generation. Turns out, people are right to question things that don't pass their smell test. Sometimes, there's a reasonable explanation, other times there's not

Question, yes, but then the question needs an answer. "Just asking questions" with no follow-up is just signal-jamming. Follow-up on the question in Flint found both elevated lead levels in kids and a mechanism by which the changed purification process released previously-fixated lead in pipes. In contrast, this is a big scary smoke cloud of a well-understood volatile compound that we've spilled into the ecosystem in…

> In contrast, this is a big scary smoke cloud of a well-understood volatile compound that we've spilled into the ecosystem in the past

In past events, vinyl chloride was not burned, and minimal amounts of it went unrecovered. We also know that hydrogen chloride is a byproduct of burning vinyl chloride, and when combined with water, makes hydrochloric acid, which is not good to come into contact with, and has killed many of the fish in East Palestine. We know vinyl chloride is a cancer-and-birth-defect-causing carcinogen. We also have seen some evidence that animals nearby are dropping dead and humans feeling sick.

We also know that the rail company, purposefully or not, did not accurately tell officials which chemicals were released. We also know in the past that corporations responsible for ecological disasters have repeatedly downplayed the incidents. We also know that a reporter was wrongfully arrested for asking questions about the incident.

We also know that rail union leaders were talking about the exact safety concerns that led to this derailment, and were told to suck it up by strikebreaking federal officials.

The correct thing to do is not dismiss concerns, but to put in place measures to stop corner-cutting and provide guidance to residents of East Palestine that isn't just "don't worry about it". There are real concerns here and no one is providing real evidence that things are safe.

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re betting other people’s money in the second case, and they have a say.

That money was granted to them as a reward for contributing to society. Society has a say in how it can be spent.

They were either granted it or they weren't.

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ayn Rand wrote a sci-fi/political philosophy book about this exact subject, named Atlas Shrugged. The main character in the book is a railroad executive struggling to keep her company afloat in the face of ruinous regulations that were designed to drive the rail systems towards nationalization. The flip side of course, that she fails to address completely in that book, is unethical behavior by private industry, such…

Also, you know, it's fucking fiction from an asshole who knew nothing about the world?

Do you believe that this comment adds to the conversation?

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Anything involving government really. This is the decades old "starve the beast" [1] mindset. Let's make sure government is absolutely ineffective at every step of the way, and then later point out how ineffective the government is and propose an even more ineffective, under-resourced government. It's a vicious cycle, and a self-fulfilled prophecy. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast

With an all-powerful government running things, you get Chernobyl.

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This story should get more traction. It isn’t because it isn’t of general interest. Not because of a conspiracy.

This is not reflective of modern news practices. There isn’t interest because that interest hasn’t been spun up. When all attention has been pulled to manufactured stories, it’s reporters’ jobs to pull and manufacture interest into things that matter.

> that interest hasn’t been spun up

This usually happens outside the news room, investigative journalism being the exception. The lack of environmental NGOs raising a fuss may be part of the problem, if you think spin is the issue. (I do not. I think most Americans simply aren’t concerned with this, and those who are, and have influence, are mostly looking at rulemaking and liability ramifications.)

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ayn Rand wrote a sci-fi/political philosophy book about this exact subject, named Atlas Shrugged. The main character in the book is a railroad executive struggling to keep her company afloat in the face of ruinous regulations that were designed to drive the rail systems towards nationalization. The flip side of course, that she fails to address completely in that book, is unethical behavior by private industry, such…

> political philosophy Mmph. Hm. I guess if Dianetics is a work on metaphysics, sure.

You may not agree with Ayn Rand, and in many cases I certainly don't, however she was a well known philosopher responsible for Objectivism and heavily influenced the formation of the Libertarian party.

There are many philosophers that I disagree with, but I wouldn't challenge whether they or their works are philosophical in nature.

Atlas Shrugged used trains and science fiction as a literary device to illustrate her philosophy.

I found it to be more engaging than her non-fiction works, which was the point, I suppose.

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