Why I'm a Pirate • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I'm a Pirate

#461

Post by gabaix » Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 7:25 AM UTC

stevecooperorg wrote: post #439

hxa7241 wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because the hen made the fucking bread, and the cow didn't Yes, we could say that work justifies payment (very simply and roughly). But that is not in dispute. It is that it does not justify payment by a particular means -- one that restricts the freedom (to copy etc.) of others. And -- you will forgive me if I am mistaken -- I am afraid inclusion of the word 'fucking' does not quite cover that. Does payment depend…

> Does payment depend, necessarily, on restriction of copying? No, it does not. The only other way I can think of is patronage; I produce a work for a patron according to their wishes, and hand it over for a fee, at which point I relinquish any further control. Are there other models?

You can sell rights to be the first viewer/reader/consumer. With a world where all digital content is almost free, first-time exclusivity can increase highly its value.

Re: Why I'm a Pirate

#462

Post by ZenPsycho » Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 7:26 AM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #451

tikhonj wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Rather, the point is that you are paid for your work rather than a copy of the result of your work. This is just like a software developer working for a salary rather than somebody eking out an existence in an app store.

But who will pay me for my work if it is not some bespoke contract thing? Will you ask for donations? What happens if you announce you will work on something and take a bunch of donations in the first couple of months (enough to live off). What happens if the donations then dry up and you run out of money so you can't continue to work on the program full time but it is not finished? Do you have to go into debt to rep…

you adapt, or you die.

Re: Why I'm a Pirate

#463

Post by jiggy2011 » Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 7:32 AM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #459

jiggy2011 wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is why people have such high regard for labels in fashion. Fashion is also a very visible way to display wealth whilst software is not, "aaah but was your copy of Office 2010 compiled by Steve Ballmer himself ".. just doesn't happen. If we got rid of software copyright what would actually happen would be that all commercial software would be moved into a SaaS model and companies would keep their servers…

Why would it give you less freedom? Software will turn into SaaS anyway or to onLive types of constructions.

If all my software is only available via a cloud service then it would restrict my freedom compared to having a local copy to the extent that I have no control over any changes to the software.

If they release an update that I don't like for example then it will not be possible for me to retain the older version.

If they decide to discontinue the software or go bust etc then I will lose access to it, this would not happen if I had my own copy.

If I have all my data saved on their servers then I am at their whim as I don't have the files myself so that makes it harder to move to another piece of software should they change their ToS in a way I do not agree with.

If I have confidential data stored with them and their servers are broken into then this causes issues that could be avoided by holding it on my own computer firewalled away from the internet.

And crucially I will not be able to access it without a working internet connection.

This may be the way of the future whether I like it or not but I wouldn't hail it completely as a good thing in terms of freedom or digital rights etc.

I actually find it somewhat ironic that a lot of the best FOSS work (Linux , Apache , Python etc) that was intended to create a software freedom utopia is actually being used primarily to build walled gardens where you have no control over the software.

Re: Why I'm a Pirate

#464

Post by jiggy2011 » Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 7:35 AM UTC

ZenPsycho wrote: post #462

jiggy2011 wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But who will pay me for my work if it is not some bespoke contract thing? Will you ask for donations? What happens if you announce you will work on something and take a bunch of donations in the first couple of months (enough to live off). What happens if the donations then dry up and you run out of money so you can't continue to work on the program full time but it is not finished? Do you have to go into debt to rep…

you adapt, or you die.

Not really a helpful answer, doesn't address any of my points.

I think "adapt or die" has the risk of killing a lot of good business models that have so far provided us with some great content/software etc.

I have yet to be provided with a good business model for content in a post copyright world that can be made to work for every type of content that we currently enjoy.

Re: Why I'm a Pirate

#465

Post by intended » Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 7:41 AM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #427

nkassis wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ever walked into a department store like Macy's? It's all ripoff from designers. There is no copyright on clothe design yet that hasn't killed the designer clothing market. Counterfeit goods to my knowledge fall under trademark laws.

I think this is why people have such high regard for labels in fashion. Fashion is also a very visible way to display wealth whilst software is not, "aaah but was your copy of Office 2010 compiled by Steve Ballmer himself ".. just doesn't happen. If we got rid of software copyright what would actually happen would be that all commercial software would be moved into a SaaS model and companies would keep their servers…

Its worth pointing out that fashion is a unique industry when it comes to copying; everyone copies everyone else.

There was a great article on this on the net, written by someone in the industry who fleshed it out with anecdotes which included a high level designer going into a budget store and looking at the design and products there, to copy.

Sadly I can't find that article, I offer a freaknomics article in its stead: http://www.freakonomics.com/2010/03/03/behind-the-scenes-of-...

Re: Why I'm a Pirate

#466

Post by ZenPsycho » Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 7:43 AM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #451

tikhonj wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Rather, the point is that you are paid for your work rather than a copy of the result of your work. This is just like a software developer working for a salary rather than somebody eking out an existence in an app store.

But who will pay me for my work if it is not some bespoke contract thing? Will you ask for donations? What happens if you announce you will work on something and take a bunch of donations in the first couple of months (enough to live off). What happens if the donations then dry up and you run out of money so you can't continue to work on the program full time but it is not finished? Do you have to go into debt to rep…

And I have yet to be provided with any reasonable business model that would still enable the creation of something like the Great Pyramids of Giza, or the Great Wall of China. I just don't think this idea of abolishing slavery has legs.

Re: Why I'm a Pirate

#467

Post by tikhonj » Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 7:44 AM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #451

tikhonj wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Rather, the point is that you are paid for your work rather than a copy of the result of your work. This is just like a software developer working for a salary rather than somebody eking out an existence in an app store.

But who will pay me for my work if it is not some bespoke contract thing? Will you ask for donations? What happens if you announce you will work on something and take a bunch of donations in the first couple of months (enough to live off). What happens if the donations then dry up and you run out of money so you can't continue to work on the program full time but it is not finished? Do you have to go into debt to rep…

I don't know how it translates to non-programming stuff, but the vast majority of developers do work for in-house stuff (I've seen this cited somewhere, but can't remember exactly where). Only a minority try to actually sell programs (admittedly including some big companies like Adobe and Microsoft, but that's a different story). Moreover, as somebody using exclusively open-source tools--and being more productive than before--I can testify that the world would not be too bad without anybody selling proprietary programs.

My point isn't that this model can carry over unchanged to a different field; rather, all I maintain is that it is possible for a creative endeavor to be pushed largely by creators working for a salary rather than a royalty. I do not know enough about fields outside of programming to figure out exactly how it would work, but I see no reason it could not exist.

Re: Why I'm a Pirate

#468

Post by jiggy2011 » Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 7:47 AM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #458

jiggy2011 wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the legal system deals with that. If you believe that you are losing money due to somebody else stealing your intellectual property then you can sue. I would not equate copying necessarily with stealing but each copy that is made of your software/music whatever will dilute it's value to an extent unless there is some compensation. Commercial software hopes you will compensate by paying money, OSS hopes you wi…

But it's not the actual copy but the ip. So it's not really any different, besides of course that transcribing someone's licks and incorporating it into your own style isn't going to get exposed.

What do you mean "isn't going to get exposed" , people complain all the time that certain songs re-use riffs from older songs.

Your argument seems to boil down to what the minimum unit of valid IP is. This is a complex issue and is often fought in courts.

Taking a riff from someone elses song and rebuilding a new song around it requires a lot more creativity time and money than simply copying and redistributing the song.

Copyright isn't so much for protecting an "idea" as such (that's what patents are for). It is to stop somebody reproducing a complete piece of work without prior agreement.

Let's say I build a new type of software and publish it, then somebody else thinks that is a good idea and builds their own version that is similar to mine (without re-using my source code). I would view that as flattery and competition. However I have a strong first mover advantage and whilst they may have learned from some of my mistakes they still have to actually do the work of creating their software which puts us economically on a relatively even footing.

Suppose instead they simply redistribute my software with their logo on it for half the price then they have a strong economical advantage because they didn't have to invest the initial development costs that I did.

Re: Why I'm a Pirate

#469

Post by jim_kaiser » Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 7:56 AM UTC

erikpukinskis wrote: post #308

nadam wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But it is also short-sighted. You are not only a 'creator', you are a user too" The question is: To what extent? If we measure how much income a person have from intellectual property and how much money they spend on intellectual property (if they not steal) then you will see the following: Most people are only consumers. A fraction of people create things as a hobby, so their consumption is not much smaller than th…

That's why I think that the no-copyright movement is unfortunatelly partly an anti-intellectual, populist, 'anti-civilisational', (ok, maybe anti elitist too) movement When combined with a pro-capitalism platform, you might be right. If writers need copyright to be able to eat and pay rent, then you are right. But anti-copyright, combined with an anti-property ("anarchist") platform isn't necessarily anti-civilisatio…

You are spot on.. my friend. I don't agree with the hidden notion that creative people create to become famous or make boat loads of money. I consider myself a creative person too.. software is my art though. Yes.. I would prefer not to have to work a day job and I'm trying to move into freelancing to do just that unless the day job is the dream team I would love to work with. Yes.. I have had desires of making it big.. but over time I've realized that basically.. I just need enough money to live comfortably and work on my ideas. That is what would really make me happy.. not being the next Zuckerberg.. especially not Zuckerberg.. but I digress.. or do I?

Re: Why I'm a Pirate

#470

Post by jiggy2011 » Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 7:58 AM UTC

tikhonj wrote: post #467

jiggy2011 wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But who will pay me for my work if it is not some bespoke contract thing? Will you ask for donations? What happens if you announce you will work on something and take a bunch of donations in the first couple of months (enough to live off). What happens if the donations then dry up and you run out of money so you can't continue to work on the program full time but it is not finished? Do you have to go into debt to rep…

I don't know how it translates to non-programming stuff, but the vast majority of developers do work for in-house stuff (I've seen this cited somewhere, but can't remember exactly where). Only a minority try to actually sell programs (admittedly including some big companies like Adobe and Microsoft, but that's a different story). Moreover, as somebody using exclusively open-source tools--and being more productive tha…

Paying someone a salary inhouse will work for stuff like "Bespoke BigCorp Customer Database" but I don't think it would work so well for general use applications intended to be sold to the population and I don't think we want those type of apps to die.

Open source dev tools are great because they are built by developers who understand what developers want and crucially they were built because they were needed i.e there was nothing commercial that did the job in the way they wanted.

How many developers know enough about developing image , video or audio editing software to do it well on their own? Most OSS solutions in this area are basically poor clones of commercial software. Also where will the money come from to fund them doing this full time?

I know as one example Ardour is developed full time and is quite a cool piece of OSS for sound editing but it's developed by one guy who can barely pay his bills from the donations, he probably makes what he would at burger king.

You would think that computer programmers would be able to design some awesome OSS games right? After all about 50% of my CS class joined the course because they wanted to make games and it's probably one of the most popular topics on any programming forum.

Well I can't really think of a single OSS game that has ever really impressed me and certainly none have become popular in the same way Half life or Skyrim has (by OSS game I mean a game that was developed under an OSS model, not something where the code was released by the developer 10 years later or something that is essentially an open source mod for a commercially developed game).