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Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

blogs.windows.com

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Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#461

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

carlamengo wrote: post #265
chocolatkey wrote: post #121

The most interesting part to me was the quote from Denuvo, presumably testing out pluton: “The Volterra devices are neat and powerful, ideal for us to test our market-leading anti-piracy and anti-cheat game security technologies. They’re also very quiet, and they just work out of the box.” – Reinhard Blaukovitsch, Managing Director of Denuvo by Irdeto

> “Performance with Volterra has been refreshingly fast. We have run Actipro’s x86-based product installers, and they all worked. Our WPF and WinForms controls all work well with no changes, even the ‘API-heavy’ ones, as does all test collateral.” – Boyd Patterson, Senior Software Engineer, Actipro Software I just thought the same, but not WPF native on arm?, but an emulation layer?, still looks very promising.

WPF on .NET 6 is native-on-ARM64 now, apparently:

* https://developer.arm.com/documentation/102341/0400/WPF-and-...

* https://github.com/dotnet/wpf/issues/1817

* https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/net-july-2021/#windows...

> Windows Forms and WPF are now supported on Windows Arm64. We added support for Windows Arm64 with .NET 6 Preview 1 and have since backported it to .NET 5 (with 5.0.8). Windows Forms and WPF work the same on Arm64 as they do on x64. You could already use x86 emulation to run Windows Forms and WPF apps on Arm64, however, there was a performance cost to doing so. With this release, you can your apps natively with full performance.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#462

Post by thesuperbigfrog »

scarface74 wrote: post #431
thesuperbigfrog wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Using Linux on the phone with the lack of integration, the poor interface etc is the opposite of “consumer friendly”. Who said anything about using Linux on phones? I agree that a third smartphone platform would need to be user friendly. Whether based on Linux, OpenBSD, QNX, Symbian, or something is just a technical detail. >> Normal consumers are not asking for the ability to “program their phone and run media se…

> Yes, but "Closed" sucks for everyone but the platform owners. If you ask 99%+ of phone users. They don’t care about a “closed” phone platform anymore than console owners care. > iOS developers have been suffering and Apple has little reason it fix the issues: https://www.wired.com/story/apples-app-store-review-fix-fail ... And what percentage of iOS users that collectively making billions are “suffering”? > Some or…

>> If you ask 99%+ of phone users. They don’t care about a “closed” phone platform anymore than console owners care.

No one cares until they are personally impacted.

>> And failing miserable. The market has spoken.

Markets shift with time and circumstances. Those on top will not be there forever.

>> And yet, it wasn’t “open standards” that brought any of the “innovations” to the market that users care about.

Most users are ignorant of the standards that they rely on. iOS and Android are built on POSIX standards and rely on numerous networking and telecommunication standards. The Internet and World Wide Web that people use their smartphones to access are built on standards. The "magical" experiences that Apple sells to users would not be possible without a veritable book of engineering standards:

https://www.ietf.org/standards/rfcs/

https://www.iso.org/home.html

https://www.ecma-international.org/

>> How many decades have Linux advocates been promising the “year of the Linux desktop”?

I am not sure why you keep pulling Linux into the discussion. Just because Android uses Linux does not mean that other smartphone platforms would use it.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#463

Post by yyyk »

pornel wrote: post #426
treis wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuinely asking because I don't know. Is there anything that's better about ARM or is the Apple/TSMC being better than Intel, AMD, Qualcomm, Samsung, et. al.?

TSMC tech helps a lot, but is not exclusive to Apple. A relatively modern and sensible 64-bit ARM architecture helps too, but on top of that Apple seems to be really good at designing the chips. OTOH Qualcomm is constantly lagging behind Apple, promising that next year they will be almost as fast as a previous-gen Apple chip. The most generous explanation I've heard is that Qualcomm is specializing in quantity over q…

Actually, TSMC reserves the lowest node size to Apple (I don't recall for how long their deal will last). AMD's processors are about equivalent despite being on a larger node - so Apple actually didn't do a great job, but a lower node size is a lower node. That's good enough for users who (correctly) don't care about the why but just want to use their computer.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#464

Post by wmf »

Dennip wrote: post #394
moomin wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entertaining thing here is that Apple’s walled garden is intended to keep people in, but here it’s keeping them out. The M1 is a technical marvel, but if you’re not already tied to Apple, it’s nowhere near good enough to warrant leaping that wall.

But isn't the walled garden in thsi case part of the appeal? i.e. running windows on it bare metal would not be as performant because of all the tighly coupled hardware-software integration apple do?

The tighly coupled hardware-software integration is mostly a myth. Linux is super-fast on Apple Silicon and Windows or Android would probably also benefit.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#465

Post by MBCook »

hallway_monitor wrote: post #413
MBCook wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They just consume a lot more power This is the thing I’m stuck on. Computers are all roughly the same speed, for the point of this discussion. But there is no contest in power. If you’re in the Windows world you have no good choices. Fast and hot to very slow and cool. Where is the “pretty fast and nicely cool” choice? Someone proved it can exist. But it’s not there and people don’t seem to be very upset about that…

Not upset but resigned I guess. Making do for now - typing this on my Macbook but my main desktop is Windows as is my work Laptop. Could Windows have better battery life? Probably only by dropping backward compatibility and moving to a Linux kernel or something radical.

A lot of stuff on MacOS ran faster on an M1 with Rosetta 2 than it ran on the Intel chips Apple was selling the year before.

For something not highly performance sensitive like office suite or line of business stuff you’d probably be fine with a half-decent ARM chip.

So much of what we do these days is a web browser (ported) or a secret web browser (Electron/etc). I work in Java, that can be ported if it’s not already. I bet C#/CLR already are.

It’s not perfect. It’s probably not ready for 3D rendering or 4k video editing.

But a HUGE percentage of people could probably go ARM tomorrow if good chips were out there. MS has their own “Rosetta” already for running x86(-64?) on ARM. Is it slow?

From my (very weak) understanding I have the impression the ARM stuff available is really cheap/slow. Not unlike the performance of the first netbooks compared to real laptops. Things that just aren’t powerful enough.

Good for MS for making a dev machine. But a few good general purpose laptops with great battery life would probably move the needle a ton, even if only in the business market.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#466

Post by ankurdhama »

Joe_Boogz wrote: post #197

It appears the consensus is HN is hesitant about the Windows on ARM push. I really want this to succeed. If this gains traction then we should start seeing support for windows laptops on ARM. As a dev who prefers windows but has a m1 MacBook b/c of the battery life I really hope this works out.

I have seen a lot of comments/discussions about battery life of laptops but my opinion is that laptops are really bad ergonomically for any kind of work that goes beyond few minutes. I always recommend people to attach the laptop to an external monitor, keyboard and mouse. It seems that people do use laptops for doing work on the go and that too for long hours.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#467

Post by MBCook »

rodgerd wrote: post #453
MBCook wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you have to demand it. People have to make clear to the vendors that this matters . As long people don’t do that everything will continue as normal. It needs to be very clear you’re not doing good enough . As long as reviewers keep ignoring the elephant in the room in their text and scores, how are you ever going to get what I’m guessing just about everyone wants? They may not know it (us Mac users were getting a…

> Qualcomm just doesn’t seem to be trying very hard in the computer segment. They're functionally a monopoly. They don't have to.

They’re a monopoly in phones. They’re no-one of consequence in computers. That’s where I want them to try.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#468

Post by shepherdjerred »

jiggawatts wrote: post #428
MBCook wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone had a battery life test for phones. The iPhones beat the android phones in nearly every test by hours. And they only had 60-70% of the raw battery capacity. And you know they have faster processors too. It’s so weird to me. The A series is kind of “that doesn’t count” because the competition can’t get close. The M series wowed people and then we all went back to normal AMD/Intel stuff like nothing happened. I…

The M-series is very directly comparable to, say, an AMD Zen 3 v-cache or a Zen 4 processor. In many scenarios the AMD is faster, and in others the M-series is faster. The main advantage of the M-series if for laptops on battery. Desktops, gaming, and software development is still significantly better on Intel-compatible desktops. E.g.: I can run Windows 11 with WSL 2 and Docker. That lets me develop using multiple h…

Also cost. You won't be M1 price/performance ratio in a laptop.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#469

Post by kitsunesoba »

ankurdhama wrote: post #466
Joe_Boogz wrote: post #197

It appears the consensus is HN is hesitant about the Windows on ARM push. I really want this to succeed. If this gains traction then we should start seeing support for windows laptops on ARM. As a dev who prefers windows but has a m1 MacBook b/c of the battery life I really hope this works out.

I have seen a lot of comments/discussions about battery life of laptops but my opinion is that laptops are really bad ergonomically for any kind of work that goes beyond few minutes. I always recommend people to attach the laptop to an external monitor, keyboard and mouse. It seems that people do use laptops for doing work on the go and that too for long hours.

I definitely prefer having a dual monitor setup with a proper keyboard and pointing device at my desk, but my 16" MBP is quite serviceable when I want to sit elsewhere in my house for a change or take my work with me.

Now for 12"/13"/14" laptops, yes I agree that extended dev work isn't the most practical, but then again I spend most of my day with IDEs and simulators — it's probably a different story for someone who lives in a terminal or spends most of their time writing prose.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#470

Post by lmm »

typon wrote: post #417
coolca wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could make a m1 SE in late 23 with a plastic case as old MacBooks, same ports of m1 air, slightly less battery and 1080p screen at 500$ and it will sell like crazy.

Why would Apple jeopardize its brand (premium products) when they are already printing enough money?

Their consumer base is shrinking even as it becomes more profitable. I doubt they have the nerve to cannibalize their high-end branding and profits, but if current trends continue then they're in trouble in the long run.
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