Jack Dorsey texts Elon Musk, March 26, 2022 • Hacker News Board

Re: Jack Dorsey texts Elon Musk, March 26, 2022

#461

Post by manholio » Sat, Oct 01, 2022, 6:50 AM UTC

Supermancho wrote: post #447

manholio wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there are undesirables in this world. Sure there are undesirables in the world wide web: neo-nazies, Q-anon, pedos & NAMBLA, Russian propaganda, spammers and carders etc. Any platform that protects the freedom of speech for fringe groups will become a haven for them and will be eventually abandoned by mainstream users.

There's a big difference between: > I believe there really are undesirables -- people who have demonstrated an inability to participate in civil society and who eventually drive away or drown out all other perspectives in a community. and > Sure there are undesirables in the world wide web: neo-nazies, Q-anon, pedos & NAMBLA, Russian propaganda, spammers and carders etc. Where pre listing categories and ideas that ar…

You won't get to the point where neo-nazis demonstrate inability to participate in a civil community following guidelines and etiquette. The mere tolerance of them will drive legitimate users away, people by large DO NOT practice freedom of speech. Ignoring that reality is an ideological fantasy, you either blacklist or will be blacklisted.

Re: Jack Dorsey texts Elon Musk, March 26, 2022

#462

Post by PhantomBKB » Sat, Oct 01, 2022, 6:54 AM UTC

stiltzkin wrote: post #411

orky56 wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

God forbid someone learns business and has produced multiple successful businesses in some of the most forward looking, technical fields. That does not immediately disqualify their ability to know technical topics and if even may signal quite the opposite. This level of elitism often among the HN crowd creates an echo chamber that stifles innovation since it arbitrarily discriminates the dissemination & mixing of ide…

Welcome to the eternal september of HN, missed the beginning of HN you could have conversation even with CEOs.

People want openness, transparency, freedom, participation regardless of whether they are CEOs or not. Now HN's got it.

Re: Jack Dorsey texts Elon Musk, March 26, 2022

#463

Post by andrewflnr » Sat, Oct 01, 2022, 6:55 AM UTC

robswc wrote: post #458

p49k wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because this viewpoint isn’t consistent with his actions; he has a long history of retaliating against anyone who criticizes him, including attacking journalists and threatening them with lawsuits as well as firing employees who raise issues within his companies.

How is "retaliating against criticism" contradictory to free speech? I could certainly argue with someone on HN but also say their banning is unjust (if I felt that it was). This has been a "solved" issue for centuries. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/06/01/defend-say/

Your comment is baffling. You ask, 'How is "retaliating against criticism" contradictory to free speech?', then spend the rest of your comment explaining why it's good to not retaliate against criticism.

Did you mean to ask and answer your own question? If that was your intent it sure wasn't clear. Do you not know what "retaliate" means, even with the context clue of threatening lawsuits against journalists? Is your first paragraph meant to be entirely causally disconnected from the rest? If so I kind of have to respect it, but it would sure help to give us some clues because that is not a conventional writing structure. What, in short, are you trying to say?

Re: Jack Dorsey texts Elon Musk, March 26, 2022

#464

Post by p49k » Sat, Oct 01, 2022, 7:08 AM UTC

robswc wrote: post #458

p49k wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because this viewpoint isn’t consistent with his actions; he has a long history of retaliating against anyone who criticizes him, including attacking journalists and threatening them with lawsuits as well as firing employees who raise issues within his companies.

How is "retaliating against criticism" contradictory to free speech? I could certainly argue with someone on HN but also say their banning is unjust (if I felt that it was). This has been a "solved" issue for centuries. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/06/01/defend-say/

Retaliation with the intent to silence critics is acting to undermine free speech. He could, for example, welcome the criticism and respond with facts.

Re: Jack Dorsey texts Elon Musk, March 26, 2022

#465

Post by FeepingCreature » Sat, Oct 01, 2022, 7:15 AM UTC

bmitc wrote: post #456

FeepingCreature wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Decentralized" is not synonymous with "equal" or "optimal".

That wasn't my point. The lack of equality means that the very few make all the decisions in this "decentralized" capitalism. The decisions that control and influence capitalism are highly centralized among a comparatively small group.

It sounds like you're just saying it's a winner-takes-all system. That's not inconsistent with decentralized decisionmaking. It's a virtue vs consequentialism thing - you can either maximize the amount of decentralization produced, which often requires some centralization to defeat network effects, or you can build systems that act in decentralized ways, which commonly leads to centralization of power due to winner-takes-all effects.

Compare recently how the decentralized nature of the internet led to centralization of services.

Re: Jack Dorsey texts Elon Musk, March 26, 2022

#466

Post by deanCommie » Sat, Oct 01, 2022, 8:08 AM UTC

hardnose wrote: post #308

andrewflnr wrote: post #18

I have to admit this is a bit surprising from Musk. I was pretty firmly of the theory that his real motive re Twitter was basically narcissism, and I'm still not sure that's wrong. I note he's not agreeing strongly with Dorsey, with the strongest phrase being "I'd like to help if I can". And I still think he would be better off using any money he might have spent buying Twitter on funding a handful of open source com…

>I was pretty firmly of the theory that his real motive re Twitter was basically narcissism, and I'm still not sure that's wrong. Why is it so hard to believe that Musk genuinely believes in exactly the version of "freedom of speech" that everyone in his generation grew up with, that served as the impetus for much of the internet's creation, etc.?

> "freedom of speech" that everyone in his generation grew up with, that served as the impetus for much of the internet's creation

Yes, because bulletin board systems famously had no moderation whatsoever.

Wait...

Re: Jack Dorsey texts Elon Musk, March 26, 2022

#467

Post by licebmi__at__ » Sat, Oct 01, 2022, 11:07 AM UTC

swamp40 wrote: post #275

once_inc wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering Dorsey's active participation and evangelising on Bitcoin and the Lightning Network, I expect that he will be working in that direction; building a messaging protocol based on the Lighting Network that allows users to upvote with satoshis. This monetises the user engagement and makes bots less feasible, aligning user incentives.

It's funny how you can take a multi-billion dollar idea, write it all out for the world to see, and it still gets ignored or ridiculed by everyone. It's also funny how you can take two of the greatest minds in our generation and dismiss them out of hand, mostly due to your previous biases of what you think they are all about. If email cost the sender 1 cent per email, spam could have been eliminated. This system woul…

You can read the same idea, time and time again in this same website, I even have heard this exact multi-billion dollar idea from my drunk cousin who is into crypto but has no idea of the complexities of running a tech business. So like always the common wisdom is that more than the idea, what matters is the implementation.

And while I also share the negative outlook on these 2, I'm aware that they are part of the group who could get it done, as they have the business know how, the connections and the money. Yet like Trump before with his social network, I still don't think they can beat the network effect.

Re: Jack Dorsey texts Elon Musk, March 26, 2022

#468

Post by licebmi__at__ » Sat, Oct 01, 2022, 11:32 AM UTC

SmokeyHamster wrote: post #367

philliphaydon wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In what way is it broken? My biggest issue with Twitter is the lack of moderation, theres SO much propaganda on there. I report tweets where someone threatens someone and they are like 'oh no violation'... I reported a tweet with a video of ukraine where they showed un-blured body parts of dead people and a message praising russian soldiers for 'smashing nazis into little pieces'... and it was 'no violation' (thank…

>My biggest issue with Twitter is the lack of moderation, theres SO much propaganda on there. Yes and no. There's too little moderation in some areas and way too much in other areas. If you follow conservative politics, someone can say something like "men are women are biologically different" and they'll have their account banned for a catch-all "hate speech" violation. Meanwhile, someone can say "Trump should be ass…

>If you follow conservative politics, someone can say something like "men are women are biologically different" and they'll have their account banned for a catch-all "hate speech" violation.

Weird, I see phrases like this and even some laced with actual hate speech all the time in twitter.

>Bottom line, Twitter is an irredeemable toxic cesspool full of both propaganda and massive censorship.

Damn right in this, they censor the silliest things, but allow even the propaganda that conservatives are censored in twitter.

Re: Jack Dorsey texts Elon Musk, March 26, 2022

#469

Post by rglullis » Sat, Oct 01, 2022, 11:56 AM UTC

jacooper wrote: post #339

kethinov wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It frustrates me that Jack seems to have genuine interest in this topic but seems to be totally averse to discussing Mastodon. It's hard to believe he's unaware of Mastodon, so we have to believe he thinks it's not the solution for some reason. But how could it not be? Why doesn't he just use his big name and significant influence to throw his weight behind Twitter's most successful open protocol competitor if he rea…

He said earlier that he wants to do it differently. Which I totally understand, Activity pub is an absolute failure when it comes to user discovery especially when a user is using his/her own server, which is the whole point of the entire protocol.

> Activity pub is an absolute failure when it comes to user discovery

Yeah, finding out people who I want to exchange messages with is also impossible with IMAP, XMPP...

"User discovery" is not part of the protocol. It's part of the application.

Re: Jack Dorsey texts Elon Musk, March 26, 2022

#470

Post by rglullis » Sat, Oct 01, 2022, 12:03 PM UTC

stiltzkin wrote: post #409

kethinov wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It frustrates me that Jack seems to have genuine interest in this topic but seems to be totally averse to discussing Mastodon. It's hard to believe he's unaware of Mastodon, so we have to believe he thinks it's not the solution for some reason. But how could it not be? Why doesn't he just use his big name and significant influence to throw his weight behind Twitter's most successful open protocol competitor if he rea…

Does Mastodon have measures vs bots and spam?, I think that's one of the issues they want to face for an alternative to Twitter.

Yes, it does. Mastodon heavily emphasizes its moderation features. Pleroma has some moderation controls but does something even more powerful with its MRF [0].

Lastly, if you want to have crypto/web3 to monetize the content distribution, there is Mitra [1], which is an AP-server being developed by ONE person and in less than a year has delivered more than the whole vapoware from Bluesky team has done since Jack announced it.

[0]: https://docs-develop.pleroma.social/backend/configuration/mr...

[1]: https://mitra.social