What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#461

Post by importantbrian » Fri, Sep 09, 2022, 3:13 PM UTC

dangerboysteve wrote: post #398

sotix wrote: post #310

I worked in public accounting with some major corporations as clients. Every single company I interacted with used SAP. It is the de facto software in its field and is deeply entrenched. Its UX is the most horribly wicked thing I’ve ever come across. We would conduct walkthroughs with process control owners that showed us what they would do in SAP to perform their job functions, and it would take multiple, intelligen…

The risk alone from a company switching ERP systems, or switching versions of the same ERP, is well documented in the press. Companies have lost tens to hundreds of millions on failed projects. So the pain points to switch to another platform must be so great even to think about going down this road. Like all ERP software, cost to implement is 2x - 3x the cost of the software. https://www.thirdstage-consulting.com/th…

One of the few things I remember from my IS management class in school was learning about Nike's massive ERP failure. If I remember right between the initial cost, lost sales, and money spent fixing the issue they lost $400 million and their stock price fell 20 or 30%.

Switching costs and risk are the major reasons these systems stay around forever. If you've got something that works. Even if it's sub-optimal, you're never going to move away from it. I worked at a place that used an ERP from a company that went out of business, so they would install DOS emulators for a really ancient version of DOS on every computer for people who needed access to the ERP. This was seen as a better solution than the perceived risk of switching ERPs. This was 10+ years ago, but to my knowledge they're still doing this.

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#462

Post by kingbirdy » Fri, Sep 09, 2022, 3:16 PM UTC

danrocks wrote: post #440

taway19920706 wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jeez, don't mention Gartner. If I see another $%&" "magic quadrant" in my life it'll be too soon.

I found it funny that even large companies seem to be thrilled when then get put in some quadrant by Gartner. I have no idea why.

Because there are many large companies who's entire purchasing procedure seems to be to select whoever's furthest in the top right of Gartner's quadrants

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#463

Post by P5fRxh5kUvp2th » Fri, Sep 09, 2022, 3:17 PM UTC

sotix wrote: post #310

I worked in public accounting with some major corporations as clients. Every single company I interacted with used SAP. It is the de facto software in its field and is deeply entrenched. Its UX is the most horribly wicked thing I’ve ever come across. We would conduct walkthroughs with process control owners that showed us what they would do in SAP to perform their job functions, and it would take multiple, intelligen…

SAP and it's ilk provide a real service.

They protect and take care of a lot of problems, the issue is they're so flexible that sometimes people build ad-hoc things on top of them and over time it becomes a ridiculous monstrosity similar to any other system in a company with major legacy.

There is no inherent solution to this problem other than disciple (or control, which has it's own productivity issues).

A lot of things developers must build in, and decisions developers make, are built in already for these systems.

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#464

Post by v-erne » Fri, Sep 09, 2022, 3:17 PM UTC

rexreed wrote: post #413

bluedino wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDI solves all of these

And yet has solved none of those. I was involved in the big effort to modernize EDI decades ago to use XML, then JSON, then REST-based approaches to simplify and encourage adoption of electronic invoicing, and yet none of it really had any effect. Emailing PDFs it is. Now the best solution is using RPA tools to automatically extract information from emailed PDFs to get them into the system. Yes, it's ERP to PDF and b…

I hear You - I took part in many projects where the most important part was OCR for invoices. I have even seen a inner process in some local bank where they were OCR'ing their own documents that were printed first by other part's of this bank.

But here in Poland the government apparently found a solution to this problem - it's called KSeF and it will force all local entities to send invoices as XML through their portal first (there will be no other legal way to invoice, because the KSeF number which is generated by the portal, is required for every legal invoice, without they won't be able to deduct VAT).

Only time will tell if this will bring new era of electronic invoicing or just another failed government project.

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#465

Post by importantbrian » Fri, Sep 09, 2022, 3:18 PM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #363

hef19898 wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the reasons why ERP systems were ao sucessful is because they replaced the majority of administrative jobs by automating them away. One of the results is that those remaining are either highly knowledgable and skilled, or working in a function that has yet to be automated away or outsourced to a cheaper country in that specific company.

Exactly. People underestimate how much SAP is doing behind the scenes when properly configured. And beyond that, they overestimate the ergonomics of any enterprise alternative , especially ones that pre-dated SAP. For every "We had a great internal platform that we custom built" story, there are multiple "We used a small vendor's product, and it was a nightmare." Why is SAP successful? Because the general purpose too…

Don't forget the "we had a terrible internal platform that we custom built and it hampered or growth or killed the company outright" stories. Of which I have seen a few.

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#466

Post by bhandziuk » Fri, Sep 09, 2022, 3:19 PM UTC

progfix wrote: post #411

_glass wrote: post #27

I am an SAP developer since kind of forever, my first job after university (since 2009). First I hated it, but the deeper I am entrenched, the more I see why you choose SAP: Because there really is no alternative. The data model is so complex because it is growing iteratively since the 80s. Hacker News is valuing businesses that adjust to the customer instead of going for some kind of purity. Another complexity espec…

> ABAP, the programming language of SAP, is quite nice nowadays I took a brief look at the ABAP wikipedia article and this insanity [1] stood out to me. I think after a decade of SAP you are too brain-washed to give an objective opinion anymore. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABAP#Spaces

Wow, that's a real landmine

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#467

Post by ghaff » Fri, Sep 09, 2022, 3:19 PM UTC

tristor wrote: post #419

joegahona wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Workday Financials is a meaningful competitor. I used SAP Concur at my last job and "horribly wicked thing" is accurate. It reminds me of that "evil UX" thing that was making the rounds a year or two ago.

The sad thing is that Concur used to be great. It was acquired by SAP and then "SAPified", now it's a nightmare. But it does /exactly/ what the bean counters want, which is to mindlessly and stupidly apply policies against business travelers who are just trying to get their job done.

Concur the software is OK though not great. What is distinctly often not OK is the mandatory fields that companies want, often arbitrary travel policies, and often needlessly nit-picky auditing. If putting in an expense report into Concur typically sailed through unless something was clearly wrong, missing reasonable documentation, or was significantly out of policy, Concur would mostly be fine.

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#468

Post by jwess » Fri, Sep 09, 2022, 3:20 PM UTC

dpflan wrote: post #392

brightball wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

20 years ago I was a grad assistant for a couple of professors who'd built a pretty incredible JIT supply chain platform. The US Army started using it to manage their uniform orders and it worked so well that two entire warehouses were torn down due to lack of use. A new general came in and insisted on using SAP. 6 months later, they had to rebuild both warehouses. EDIT: For some additional context, the system manage…

Are there any documents supporting this? I ask because I am curious what official documents exist around this idea of mandated return to inefficiency -- there must've been a gain elsewhere (or is that too optimistic)? Plus there must be costs documented associated with the first and second program. Genuinely curious about this type of decision (call it "inefficiency thrash"?).

Here's a link to a report that has a lot more information about the system: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA393599.pdf

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#469

Post by ishjoh » Fri, Sep 09, 2022, 3:21 PM UTC

danrocks wrote: post #440

taway19920706 wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jeez, don't mention Gartner. If I see another $%&" "magic quadrant" in my life it'll be too soon.

I found it funny that even large companies seem to be thrilled when then get put in some quadrant by Gartner. I have no idea why.

It's a standard publication read by upper management at tons of large companies. Being in a quadrant is basically marketing to exactly the people you want to reach.

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#470

Post by rexreed » Fri, Sep 09, 2022, 3:22 PM UTC

v-erne wrote: post #464

rexreed wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet has solved none of those. I was involved in the big effort to modernize EDI decades ago to use XML, then JSON, then REST-based approaches to simplify and encourage adoption of electronic invoicing, and yet none of it really had any effect. Emailing PDFs it is. Now the best solution is using RPA tools to automatically extract information from emailed PDFs to get them into the system. Yes, it's ERP to PDF and b…

I hear You - I took part in many projects where the most important part was OCR for invoices. I have even seen a inner process in some local bank where they were OCR'ing their own documents that were printed first by other part's of this bank. But here in Poland the government apparently found a solution to this problem - it's called KSeF and it will force all local entities to send invoices as XML through their port…

Interestingly, the Hebrew word for money is "Kesef". Coincidence? Probably.

As for whether or not it will work, I think as long as Polish companies need to invoice non-Polish companies and vice-versa, trying to standardize in this manner will be challenging.