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Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

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461–470 of 536 posts

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget low level embedded programmers, Kernel developers, and many who live in the world of coding in C/ASM. I recall numerous instances in my undergraduate career where professors and the students passionate in these fields would actively persuade people who didn't get exposes to the stuff from even trying. I remember one professor teaching an elective class on the Linux kernel and how he would try his best to…

We are currently having a hell of a time trying to hire embedded developers We're looking for bare metal developers so basic SPI, I2C, UART knowledge is essential, but even in that realm it's surprising how many embedded devs can't work outside of an RTOS and lack basic hardware knowledge

I can do that kind of work. I regularly get recruiter emails for these jobs because my resume clearly shows I have experience in it. But the jobs are always some shitty contract job, and located in some stupid place I don't want to live (no remote work possible), and if the salary is given it sucks.

So I've been doing higher-level work for a long time now.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#462
post #149
post #122

Food for thought: At the time of this comment almost all the top comments are about pay. No doubt pay is an important consideration, but it worries me when it’s the primary consideration. The best engineers I know like engineering because they have a natural curiosity to learn how things work, not because it’s the easiest route to riches. Any engineering position can lead to a comfortable life, but when everything is…

I am trained in electronics. I love it. I have never stopped messing with electronics and microcontrollers over my whole life. (And how good is it these days with things like, the RISC-V ESP32 with wifi and cheap as chips, unreal little modules, for example measuring temperature to +/- 0.01C, air-born particles, radiation etc etc). This said, I doubt I could afford a comfortable life with a house and family in a majo…

>I doubt I could afford a comfortable life with a house and family in a major city like Sydney

I don’t think there’s any disagreement here, but it’s because you layered on an important constraint regarding location. Similarly, there are very few jobs that could support living in Manhattan or on a yacht, but that’s not really the larger point. The larger point being, the posts focused singularly on money. Like your location, if we narrowly constrain the problem, of course it means there are only a few options that make sense. If all I care any is money, there are only a handful of acceptable job prospects.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#463
post #18

I moved into IT from "formal" engineering and its always frustrated me that a job that involves working on extremely expensive engines using upper level college math gets paid almost nothing compared to people who change colors on a webpage every once in a while. I've been on floors where multi-million dollar pieces of equipment are used to produce parts with obscene levels of precision being used by expert machinist…

It's because software engineers don't need capital to do their job, giving them a ton of leverage compared to other engineers. Imagine if you make airplane engines for GE as an ME, and you want a higher salary, who else are you going to go to? There's barely any companies in the country that have the capacity to make airplane engines, so there's less competition for your labor. Your work is probably fairly specialize…

>Imagine if you make airplane engines for GE as an ME, and you want a higher salary, who else are you going to go to? There's barely any companies in the country that have the capacity to make airplane engines, so there's less competition for your labor.

Sure, but what happens when you decide you're sick of a poor salary, and you learn Python and CS in your spare time and interview for Google and then quit your airplane engine job to make 3x as much working for Google? Where is GE going to get a replacement with your expertise and experience? What happens if all the engineers at GE do this?

It seems like the only reason this doesn't happen is because of inertia: the airplane engine engineers just aren't ambitious enough to leave their field for much higher pay. That doesn't seem like a good long-term strategy for a company making a critical component of a globally-important industry however.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#464
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an engineer at heart, but I do have bills to pay and I can become interested in basically any complex system. If EE paid better, I would be an EE. EE is interesting. Neither SWE nor my chosen career are sufficiently less interesting than EE though so it's not like I picked an uninteresting career for financial reasons. At the end of the day it's all just problem solving. If the puzzles are all fun and don't go ag…

I agree with this. It's easy to get caught up in a very binary "in it for the money" vs "doing what you love" mindset, but I think the reality is a balance of both. Money is actually quite great and I am willing to compromise a little bit in my day job in order to receive more money. At the same time, there are some jobs I simply do not want to do, even if they may be higher paid than what I'm doing now.

This is exactly my point. The issue I was pointing out is that the comments only spoke to a single side of this, with none of the nuance you provided.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in the USA. My highest degree is high school. I had some college, but was a complete waste. I taught myself systems engineering, computer science, electrical engineering, and some chemistry. Most of these, I taught myself with low amount of investment, pirated books, pirated software, and garbage salvage. I now work for the federal govt as a contractor making $150k/yr. The classes I took never even remotely go…

How did u go about teaching ur self electrical engineering?

Start basic. Learn the basics of electricity. Ham radio is great for this. A license to operate is $15 or so.

Start looking at what the basic parts are. Look up spec sheets. Figure them out and what they mean. You may know what you want to do, but finding the part is half this battle. Start figuring out what the landscape looks like. Last you want to do is design something with retired status and no NOS (new old stock).

Also start getting electronic books on the basic topics. Trawl through college book lists, and then hit up libgen.is or other library genesis sites and get the books. We're trying to do this assuming you have very little money to work with. So piracy it is. And in actuality, the fundamentals don't really change much.

Learn analog circuitry. Go study and make your own simple circuits like circuit benders and acoustic effects.

Then dig into digital stuff. Lots of things here. You'll want to learn boolean logic, circuit analysis, and the like. There's tons of electronics to fuck around with to l;earn how they work and not work.

Past analog and digital stuffs are sensors and actuators. Sensors pick up things from the world, and actuators are things that interact with the real world. Learning and building your own 3d printer can teach you a LOT about this area in a rather quick manner. And working with an open source firmware like Merlin or Klipper can teach you digital handlings, firmware (with no OS), timing, handling analog signals, cleaning up various data, extending the hardware/software, and generally teaching yourself by trial by fire.... and print a whole lot of cool things too. (Helps to also 3d print project boxes.)

Learn how to handle power applications. Obviously we're not talking the 10kV circuits... We're talking handling batteries of various chemistries, building charge/discharge circuitry, and safe handling of the more dangerous lithium chemistries so they dont do a boeing or tesla on you. If you mess with lithiums, invest in 2 big metal buckets each half-full with sand. You'll thank me.

Get good with an IDE, like KiCAD. You'll eventually start building your own boards and parts and add them as usable things in other designs. If you get a job in industry, you'll likely use Altium. Pirate it if you can to learn it. Use the autorouter, and then do it by hand, and realize how terrible the autorouter is. Board design is just as much as an art as it is hard science. I've also heard for calculating EM prop to use something like http://openems.de/start/index.php but most tools in this realm are stupid expensive. Again, find and pirate.

Pick up some cheaper instrumentation. You'll want a good bench power supply, good 2 channel oscilloscope at 50MHz or better, signal generator, good soldering iron, good hot air rework station, fluxes, solders, solder braid, solder sucker, inspection microscope, logic analyzer, and more narrower hardware as your studies and need arise.

I also learned reverse engineering, at multiple levels. There's a lot of stuff that this can be used to attack your hardware that protects itself from, well, you. Some of the attacks are pretty simple, and others are crazy complex. Again, you might get really lucky. This usually inst taught in schools 'proper'. "Hacker skills" are usually frowned upon by the academics.

If you;re adventurous, you can also get into RF. Just be aware, this will sink your money like nothing else. A single decent SDR can easily cost you $700... And you still need a whole slew of equipment to get it to work. You can start out pretty cheaply, with 2 hackRF clones, 2 tcxo's, 2 RatLSnake antenna kits, and start learning from there. There's a lot to learn from a whole lot of fields, but even small advances are definitely noteworthy, and easily could get you published.

I know this misses quite a lot in the EE domain. However you can easily fill in the blanks as your need arises. There's a bit of analytics and mathematics I didn't directly discuss. You'll need to learn calculus. FFTs are definitely super importent and "integral" (haha) to anything regarding signals and information. https://catalog.purdue.edu/preview_program.php?catoid=7&poid... has a general listing of what their EE classes look like. You can hit wikipedia and youtube for those topics. There's LOTS of really great videos that explain the math and science online. Use those resources.

(I saved this for last, but I would also ask that you consider working on your English and grammar. Some of the worst spelling I've seen has been done by engineers. Try not to continue that trend. Lay-people and managerial/leadership types will take you more seriously.... But engineers... I don't think they'd notice :D )

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It requires above average: [...] Literally all those traits you listed are needed as an EE(and in many other white collar and blue collar professions too) plus add even more scary stuff like advanced math (for PID tuning, system signal processing, system modelling and simulation, etc.), but for way less pay that even a kid making iOS apps who hasn't passed highschool math can out-earn you. So how is that fair? My ex…

I mean above average of everything you mentioned. Don't have a hard data to reference, it's just my personal, anecdotal observation.

>I mean above average of everything you mentioned.

Almost 50% of the people on the planet are technically above average. Not exactly a high bar to clear for something so well paid.

And it's not what I mentioned. I was talking about the original traits you mentioned. Most professions need those traits as well, web devs aren't that intellectually special as you might think, at least in Europe where plenty have access to free upper education.

I added advanced math, signal processing and control systems theory to show you the bar that EEs have, that many web devs couldn't clear as most web dev are just plumbing various flavor-of-the-month languages, frameworks and microservices together to parse a shitty JSON in AWS. Stuff that can be learned at home in a few months without studying engineering in University.

And I'm saying this with first hand experience, as an EE turned cloud dev. Web dev is basically overpaid when you look at how easy the bar is and how much money you make vs EE and other skilled careers that are the other way around in comparison. This goes double for my mechanical engineering friends who had to pass super difficult exams in university in terms of difficult math, CFD, structural analysis and simulations, all requiring very complex and domain specific knowledge only to get paid less than a Java dev. Do you think they are not above average?

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#467
post #18

I moved into IT from "formal" engineering and its always frustrated me that a job that involves working on extremely expensive engines using upper level college math gets paid almost nothing compared to people who change colors on a webpage every once in a while. I've been on floors where multi-million dollar pieces of equipment are used to produce parts with obscene levels of precision being used by expert machinist…

Supply & Demand (aka Market Economics) dictates pay rate. Not difficulty, danger, or years spent studying challenging topics. Changing a color... that's basic html/css-- that's the lowest pay rung of front end developers, which is the lowest paid occupational field within the occupation of full stack web app engineers. So, you're grossly exaggerating. People who just change colors of a web site might make $15-20/hr i…

> and tell me how difficult it is compared to machining + CNCing + welding a metal part. Not to knock machinists-- I've worked on metal machines and I understand why master mechanics make $100k/year.

> But I also see why they don't make $200k/year (exception for luxury vehicles)-- there's only so much to learn and only so many dimensions of complexity, especially in terms of continuing education on new technology.

I can simplify k8s down to "this is just a bunch of containers that run small pieces of software that talk to each other and autoscale up and down as you tell it to", and naturally that doesn't scratch the surface of what's going on.

In 4+ DoF metal manufacture, there's so many things to keep mind of. Basically, those people are metallurgical-based materials scientists. They'd be in charge of helping choose the materials for the application, billet sizes from the ingot factories, QA at all levels, impurity calculations from the ingots, grain structure sizes, can even be radioactivity measurements.

And then there's the actual machining process. If you've ever used a 6DoF mill, its nowhere near idiot-proof. And one improperly tightened part = damaged 6DoF head. That's a sad day indeed. And you're not done after the part completes. There's also post-processing all the way on up.

And I didn't even discuss metrology - or the study of measurements. Measuring what you're doing is the difference between a passed part and a failed part. And your failures may be caught upstream. And depending on some parts, you may also be doing xray spectroscopy to determine voids and other subsurface defects with the machining type you used.

You also mentioned welding. That's its own massive area of tons of failure modes, not all which also can be seen by the naked eye. Or, imagine doing underwater welding in a water tower that sprung a leak because someone shot at it. You're going up with 200 lbs of equipment, including SCUBA gear and thermite or a thermic lance.

To be honest, I have it easy. I work remote as systems engineer. I thought about switching to EE if the economy cools. But the "blue collar" (Read: tremendously skilled roles) are looked down on because they mess with physical stuffs. And the EE's do physical but are considered white collar, so they're "more acceptable". But I try to see them as the fellow professionals they truly are. The end of the day, they can hold their stuff and go "I made this". I certainly can't hold up an EC2 and say the same. Doesnt have the same feel.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#468

I graduated from EE, spent many years learning how electromagnetic fields impact traces if they are positioned incorrectly, how to measure radiation patterns and design antennas. I could still design a simple sensor module without having touched the field for 10 years. I am more than happy to be a software engineer and earn 3x over what I would earn for a much more stressful job as an EE. A software bug in production…

>I am more than happy to be a software engineer and earn 3x over what I would earn for a much more stressful job as an EE. A software bug in production or a bad deployment - do an RCA and you are fine. Ship a PCB to mass production with a weird design fault you somehow missed through all the Greek versions.. and you have a nice bill to explain to the management.

This exact thing happened to me at my first job out of college. I had a small error in my prototype PCB design for my first PCB design ever, and management used it to justify giving me a bad review and no raise. I ended up leaving the job after less than a year, and not long after I was doing software. I never looked back.

As far as I'm concerned, American companies simply should not do hardware. American management cares too much about short-term results and has no long-term vision, so they should concentrate of work that supports that way of thinking, like software. Leave the hardware to companies and cultures that can think long-term, like the Asian nations.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#469

I loved tinkering with electronics when I was younger - still do to a smaller degree. I built my first computer by fixing some blown capacitors on a motherboard I found in the trash. Back in the day, lots of products came with schematics, now you might get a lawsuit if you dare to take something apart. It was way easier to take apart and tweak through hole components too - now everything is surface mount or on chip a…

Surface mount isn't that big of a deal. A cheap hot air gun, a soldering iron, flux, and some solder paste are all you need to work with most BGAs, QFN, and other modern packages. PCB prototype manufacturing has never been cheaper thanks to companies like JLCPCB. With all the fantastic learning material on YouTube, open source tools like KiCad, and inexpensive chinese test equipment, the kids these days can do WAY mo…

Not only that, but doing any rework with surface mount is usually much easier than with thru-hole or DIP chips. Removing a DIP chip usually means snipping the leads off (thus ruining the chip) and individually pulling each severed leg out with an iron and solder-sucker. By contrast, an SOIC-type chip can be removed in seconds with a hot-air gun.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#470
post #334

"While computer science course take-up had gone up by over 90 percent in the past 50 years, electrical engineering (EE) had declined by the same amount" Well yes, computer science used to be just a specialization of EE. Not that I don't think the EE scene is a little sad these days (I am currently an EE student) but I think this is important that we don't forget that EE has been split into a bunch of specializations.

>Well yes, computer science used to be just a specialization of EE.

Huh? No, it wasn't. CS started out as a specialization in the Math department, since CS is really just an extension of mathematics.

EE is very math-heavy compared to other engineering fields, but CS never came from EE though there's a lot of overlap.

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