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Elon’s Out

bloomberg.com

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Re: Elon’s Out

#461

Post by Retric »

b112 wrote: post #439
genocidicbunny wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but if the court orders it and he refuses, can that not be construed as contempt of court? People definitely go to jail for that.

That's criminal, not civil court. Civil court works on fiscal, property to mitigate damage. If he is found to breach contract, a court could order seizure of assets (cash or property). There could be punitive damages assessed too, if his actions are seen as purposefully malign.

Contempt of court is independent of the original cases criminal vs civil distinction.

You can have criminal contempt in a civil case and criminal contempt in a civil case. The rules vary by state but in PA it’s civil contempt is used to force people to comply where criminal is punishment for disobedience.

Re: Elon’s Out

#462

Post by colechristensen »

Victerius wrote: post #441
Volundr wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you? Just seize and liquidate his Telsa stock, and pay it to Twitter. Done, no jail needed. Courts are entirely capable of seizing such assets.

How would the Delaware Chancery seize $44B worth of Elon Musk's TSLA shares?

Order the legal entities which possess the shares to transfer ownership of them. Actually keeping track of stocks is complicated but ultimately a boring bureaucracy.

Re: Elon’s Out

#463

Post by dylan604 »

lttlrck wrote: post #436
avalys wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the Wall Street Journal this afternoon: "“What are they going to do if there is a judgment and he says, ‘Well, I’m still not going to buy it’?” said Zohar Goshen, professor of transactional law at Columbia Law School. “They don’t really have tools to force him to go through with it. You don’t put people in jail because they don’t buy something.”" https://www.wsj.com/articles/twitter-elon-musk-set-for-unpre...

If he has a judgement against him, couldn't they make it very hard for him to do any further business in Delaware? That could be quite a handicap.

Meh, there's 49 other states that a new company can be chartered. Sure, they all different pros/cons, but those will be better than nothing at all.

Re: Elon’s Out

#464

Post by pyronite »

tiberriver256 wrote: post #401

If the designer of Bloomberg.com is on HN... thank your for making a decent looking news site. Literally every other site I'm bombarded with sensory overload. This site just lets me read the article in sweet serenity.

Something tells me it's not the designers responsible for sensory overload on other news sites.

Re: Elon’s Out

#465

Post by Victerius »

colechristensen wrote: post #462
Victerius wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would the Delaware Chancery seize $44B worth of Elon Musk's TSLA shares?

Order the legal entities which possess the shares to transfer ownership of them. Actually keeping track of stocks is complicated but ultimately a boring bureaucracy.

Thanks. Further questions:

(1) Would it be legal for someone to own the legal entity owning their shares of publicly traded companies?

(2) What if he moves all of his stock in offshore accounts?

Re: Elon’s Out

#466

Post by throwaway09223 »

kortilla wrote: post #405
throwaway09223 wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh give me a break. Property of a privately owned company can be directly seized. I have not done an analysis on exactly which of Musk's private companies are jointly owned, and how the ownership is structured. It's a comment on hn for crying out loud.

SpaceX is well known to have a bunch of investors. Put a little effort in before explicitly calling out that the government could seize rockets. It’s as silly as saying they could start just taking Model 3s from the Tesla factory to get their money back.

I think you're misunderstanding. It's absolutely possible to seize rockets, or model 3s, etc. That part isn't silly at all.

The only question is regarding which entity is liable. If a judgement were entered against SpaceX, for example, then absolutely rockets and real property owned by SpaceX can be directly seized.

Without looking, I'm certain there are at least a few companies owned by Musk which could have their assets taken directly.

Re: Elon’s Out

#467

Post by labrador »

KKdU9EXbBhmLznR wrote: post #323
labrador wrote: post #203

I believe he was sincere, but found out quickly that a lot of people had strong feelings about his plans for the platform. It's possible he was in danger of losing people he really needs for his other businesses. I don't blame him for bailing out on a lose/lose situation.

... how is that an excuse? He knew that full well before he ever started thinking about buying it, much less making public statements about it. (Just like he knew about the bots)

He is self-described as having autism to some degree, so reading the emotional landscape is probably not his strength.

Re: Elon’s Out

#468

Post by Victerius »

throwaway09223 wrote: post #457
Victerius wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would the Delaware Chancery seize $44B worth of Elon Musk's TSLA shares?

They wouldn't. Here's how it works: 1) The court would issue a judgement for Twitter, against Musk, for $44b. 2) Musk would either voluntarily pay it by selling his own assets, or he would refuse. If he refuses, then: 3) Twitter would go about seizing and selling Musk's assets, until they have raised funds to cover the $44b judgement. Twitter could levy whatever brokerage or account Musk uses to hold his shares. Some…

Thanks. Further questions:

(1) Would it be legal for him to own the brokerage?

(2) What if he moves all of his stock in offshore accounts?

Re: Elon’s Out

#469

Post by jjeaff »

roenxi wrote: post #459
hotpotamus wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anytime the idea of a wealth tax is brought up, I see commenters coming out of the woodwork to say that it would be impossible to actually collect it from the wealthy. Though I will note that it seems like we are able to collect yachts and planes from Russian oligarchs now, so perhaps our techniques have advanced in the last few months.

The tax & plane seizures are 1. A surprising departure from the rules and norms - I assume probably illegal. 2. Part of a campaign designed to ruin Russia. You might have misunderstood the argument the anti-taxers (pro-property?) people are bringing up. There isn't a physical problem with taking wealth away from people, that part is very easy to execute. The problem is the 2nd order effects where it will turn into an…

What law prohibits the seizure of foreign assets on international waters?

Re: Elon’s Out

#470

Post by sklargh »

alphabetting wrote: post #4

I found this part most interesting. Public awareness of the Delaware Court of Chancery is about to skyrocket during this court battle. The fact that Musk is working in such bad faith here — that he seems so unconcerned with law and the contract he signed — cuts both ways. On the one hand, it will certainly annoy a Delaware chancellor; Delaware likes to think of itself as a stable place for corporate deals, with predi…

This is the thing. I feel like the Delaware Chancery Court is going to compel specific performance and the incentives for all other parties here are tilted deeply towards compliance.

On a practical level, every large financial institution with dollar assets (I mean this literally) has a far greater vested interest in maintaining a productive relationship with the Chancery than they do with Musk.

On a political level, could easily see the Delaware governor getting a kick out of sending the state police to arrest Musk for contempt, impound his assets.

Then again, Musk is a pretty good gambler.

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