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I fucking hate Jira

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Re: I fucking hate Jira

#461
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I've been defended Jira here in the past, too. My opinion is that Jira reflects the organisation that manages it. It's basically a whole lot of customizable UI and permissions hanging off a user-defined state machine. You can set it up so that individual teams can fully administer their own projects, or you can go all the way in the other direction and have centralized, locked-down management where you beg some…

Jira doesn't just reflect, it drives convoluted unhelpful bureaucracy. The tool drives the organization to look like the tool wants it to, which is disorganized half broken "organization" with silly overcomplicated rules that give people something to discuss enthusiastically instead of the actual work that needs doing. Jira is organization poison, not just a reflection of what an organization is.

> Jira doesn't just reflect, it drives convoluted unhelpful bureaucracy.

I though so too, but now I no longer believe that's the case. This is because of two reasons: one questions the statement itself - and the other one questions whether the statement correctly identifies the organizational issue.

Firstly, almost every tool I ever used for project organization has grown to similar degree of complexity. All _software_ employed was strongly incentivized to implement new mechanisms of automation and regulation - thus right now I would struggle to name a non-defunct and non-single-user tool that doesn't have the issue. And certainly no tool that that I would call "established" - an arbitrary designation, to be sure, but that largely reflects that the complexity almost _defines_ establishment for a project management tool.

Secondly, because I think the issue isn't, truly, the _bureaucracy_. Right now I believe it's the _technocracy_. It's the belief that every process has to be codified into software, and enforced in a manner that would make exceptions impossible without a pull request. This leads to - increase in complexity (because corner cases that would be easily solved with a quick email exchange now require weird workarounds - and if they are too common, actual change to the software) - reduction in real organizational flexibility (any special case is now discouraged on a technical level).

Worst part is, it's very hard to sell a shift away from this. Technocratic adherence to software-enforced processes became nearly synonymous to "accountability." In itself that's frustrating to me - I believe this serves to paint organizational failures as forces of nature, effectively reducing accountability. But, so far, I have failed to effectively communicate it to most people - with exception of the very few who, themselves, have a considerable interest in social dynamics, one that goes beyond the professional interest expected of a manager. And to those, those are generally truisms - I'm under no impression I'm particularly original here.

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Aaaanyway, I went back to liking Jira - because, under all the cruft, there's still (or at least there still was) the basic bug tracker software that's almost like Bugzilla, but slightly less painful. And I like bug trackers, as long as they're used to track bugs - not manage projects. Projects are managed by people, and these days I believe that the reason all this software, as complex as it is, keeps failing to accurately communicate the project state, is because you would need the software to be a person.

Re: I fucking hate Jira

#462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how long is this going to last before someone further up decides that Jira needs to be unified for reporting purposes? Eventually somebody with the organization obsession is going to get hired and put somewhere important and their goal is going to be making something complicated and unified and dissent will be "discouraged".

Depends on where you work I guess. In reality, reporting really has nothing to do with SWE state tracking. You can also just write a report in a letter and mail it to the board. It's not like they are going to log in to JIRA or even have an account or SSO-allowed credentials since they don't need to be there. On the other hand, like almost copy-pasted here, if a top-down 'unification make it worse for everyone' effor…

Spot on. One of the reasons we created Atlas (new product) was precisely this: help stakeholders and dependent teams focus on common language between teams over this misconception that task-level reporting is how they help understand the true state of work. Disclaimer: I work for Atlassian on Atlas, and I didn’t think I could ever get so passionate about soling this problem.

Re: I fucking hate Jira

#463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only speak to the comparison with hg, but for large repos, git's performance is literally 10x better in our case (we have two parallel copies, one in hg and one in git, so as to smooth the transition to git). hg seems more usable, but certain decisions are poor (e.g. baking the branch name into each commit); overall I have no strong preference between the two except for the speed. But the speed pretty much drow…

git's performance increase came around at the right time, too. Code bases were becoming bigger and bigger, and Agile's popularity preached a lot of branching. SVN branches were a full copy, making things way worse.

Yeah that had occurred to me. But I'd used TFS (which didn't have light-weight branches) with Agile-like development practices and it wasn't that big a deal. Maybe if the codebase was 10 or 20 times bigger it would've been.

Re: I fucking hate Jira

#464
Recall the root cause here. The buyer is not the user. This isn't just true for Jira but the vast majority of enterprise software. Enterprise software is bad, not just Jira, or Confluence or whatever Atlassian product you hate most.

If you are working on enterprise software it's probably bad. Even if your sales and stock are doing well, your software is still probably very frustrating to end users because they have no say in how it's made. The only users who do are admin, governance, legal, or other non-productive user. Their voices get heard and they tell the Director/VP/CTO they are happy and then the software gets renewed and seats expanded. Nowhere in there is the end user who is beating their head against a wall consulted.

Enterprise software is bad and it's worst for people who make software because we know it could be good.

Re: I fucking hate Jira

#465
I watched Margin Call. The huddling that goes on between the higher ups and the peons when the chips are down is what JIRA does for companies every day. If the firm in that movie had been using JIRA (and it it were real life and not a movie); I believe they would have had daily, much better communications and coordination and could have avoided the whole scenario the movie is about. Spoiler alert, Spacey's character's dog would still have died.

The poorly optimized performance of JIRA almost makes me believe they don't even use their own product. Perhaps performance is on the backlog of the backlog.

Re: I fucking hate Jira

#466

I feel like hating on Jira is the pastime that is now passed down from each generation of programmers to the next. I'm going to stick up for Jira. I certainly don't "love" Jira, though I do think they've made significant improvements with "new Jira" (I think they call them team-managed projects now). The problem I have with the incessant Jira bitching is that I rarely feel that bitchers have a true understanding for…

> why don't you think some other company has come along and toppled the Jira crown? Because it's really hard to kill off the market leader when the market leader is embedded into the core of how a company works. I don't buy that it's a matter of competitors not being better. It is more about inertia. The argument you have here could equally be applied to C++ or Cobol "Why is new code being written in these languages?…

Jira's core positioning is huge companies with complex organizations that will be willing to adjust tooling to their needs. Sure small and middle size companies can be happy with it too, but they're far from being the main profit center.

At that level, there isn't much competition. It costs a lot to develop a product that does everything and throws in the kitchen sink. It doesn't make sense for a startup, Open Source project could fit the bill (bugzilla ?) but they'd still need a service providing company, probably some corporate backing for the contracts etc.

Basically, JIRA is the Microsoft (or Oracle?) of the field, and any other company wanting to fight that turf would need incredibly deep pockets with an upfront investment that would only be recouped way way down the line, if they ever make it that far, and fighting JIRA would mean lower margins than if they dominated the market alone. Overall that doesn't look like a sane bet in any shape or form.

Re: I fucking hate Jira

#467
Historically JIRA has toed the line of being minimally acceptable to keep teams from transitioning to competitors, but their recent outage has left such a sour impression of their engineering and operations processes that they have finally crossed the line from minimally acceptable to completely unacceptable.

We're currently evaluating alternatives and what a transition plan may look like for ~5k issues with attachments/comments/mockups etc. Any products out there with a built-in JIRA migration tool?

Re: I fucking hate Jira

#469
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And try to get a straight answer on pricing from the ServiceNow rep…

The answer is "way more than is sensible, even factoring in how absurd pricing on crap like this has gotten." We dropped SN a couple years back over this. They were charging us about 6-7x what we pay for Jira, and we still use the on-site enterprise version of Jira.

“Let’s have a kickoff, invite everyone in the company who may be interested, and white board out all the possible use cases. We have an exciting new pricing model that will greatly simplify pricing on your existing business. But I can’t tell you that price until after the kickoff.”

Re: I fucking hate Jira

#470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it isn't. We have plenty of setups in multiple organisations where even within the org only the administrative settings of the server are locked down and everyone else is free to do whatever they need. Lots of teams just use it as a kanban board, while others setup a state machine-based funnel to process user/business input into usable tickets. JIRA in its default configuration essentially lets you create anythin…

It amazes me how much hate Jira gets compared to ServiceNow. My last two roles have been heavy on the ServiceNow, and I'd take a fresh breath of Jira any time. My guess is it's because Jira actively targets SMB, while ServiceNow is almost strictly enterprise, and folks in enterprise have already resigned to their fate.

ServiceNow is just about the most user hostile software I know. I know that any request I make that ends up in SN will take 2-4 times as long and i will never be sure that anything is happening or that they person on the other actually knows what I want.
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