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Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

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Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#461
post #82

This article takes an off-the-cuff comment from the CEO of Ford and reads too much into it IMO. He wasn’t saying dealerships are going away; he was actually saying the opposite. The point he was making was that Ford is going to adopt some of Tesla’s practices while using the dealership network to compete with them. Here’s the quote with more context: “I believe for retail, we have to -- it's kind of like what happene…

I honestly felt that this is where Sears dropped the ball. If any company should have had the "DNA" to compete with Amazon, it should have been Sears. Which basically owned the catalog/mail order space before the internet.

They could have leveraged their large stores to be showrooms / distribution hubs (that they mostly already owned, which is why the private equity people were so interested in them, due to their real estate holdings). You visit a sears, you see what you want, you order it and in a couple of days you come back to pick it up. Their logistics pricing should be cheaper than what amazon could have done (as they are skipping last mile), and for many consumers it wouldn't have made much of a difference (the sears that was local to me growing up was in the same general shopping center as the groccery store we generally went to, so we were regularly there).

Of course they did try to do "in store pickup", but this was when they were dying already and the experience was pretty terrible (i still used it a bunch back in the day as at one point they were basically paying us to shop at sears via the amount of free shop your way points they were giving out).

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all in the perceptions. Pretty much everything made in the last 30yr lasts as long as you're willing to keep doing the normal scheduled maintenance and keep feeding it wear parts. The average Toyota buyer is a lot more willing and financially capable of doing that than the kind of person who rolls negative equity on an Altima into a Dodge Journey. I used to be responsible for a fleet of delivery vans. I would ha…

You’re talking about the difference between commercial and commuter use. We both know that they are not the same at all, and have different manufacturing environments, parts, builds, and specs. Clearly, this discussion is not about commercial vehicles. Go look at the list of most reliable cars. Toyota and Honda are always listed as number one and two. Ford isn’t ever discussed as "reliable". I think this goes way bey…

Oh FFS. Fine, if the fanboys demand it I'll do a personal use comparison.

What do you do in your Accord? You commute in it, or something along those lines, and that's probably about it. How much back seat wear is it getting? You got kids fighting back there? Do you stick your new dryer on the roof or do you pay the $20 for delivery? Your peers probably answer those questions about the same way. Meanwhile, several tax brackets down things are way different. Some single mom's four kids are doing their best impression of UFC in the back of her '09 CVT Altima, no wonder the seat is ripped, the floor contains a dozen types of dried soft drink syrup and the "window lock" switch is worn out by 100k. The differences only get wider as you start considering vehicles that are sold as having a lot of utility (wagons, SUVs, minivans), at the lower price tiers people size these vehicles to be just barely enough for what they want to do. At the high end people are buy way more vehicle than they need.

Let's even remove brand from the equation. How many grand Marquis do you see on the road these days? Probably 2 for every non-cop and non-ex-cop Crown Vic you see. Do you think that is in any way representative of the sales numbers when those things were rolling off the line back in the day? Of course not. Vics out-sold Grand Marquis and Town Cars by a wide margin. But a greater fraction of 'Vic buyers rode them hard and put them away wet with the intention of getting something else around 100-200k. The older, wealthier Grand Marquis buyers did the maintenance on schedule and kept them in good order so they lasted longer.

A key mechanism of "lasting longer" is price. People have different expectations and give different treatment to a car depending on price. So you trade in your Accord or whatever, it's in great shape. It goes on the used car lot for a lot of $$. So that ensures the the statistical next buyer is more well off, expecting it to last longer and therefore more willing to care for it. Meanwhile the guy that buys the Altima from the above example pays pennies for it and is expecting it to go maybe 50k before needing something big at which point he intends to dump it. So he's not gonna fix that window lock switch. He's gonna have no qualms about letting his dog f-up the already torn back seat. He's also gonna skip the transmission fluid changes and air filter and generally neglect the car because there's no reason not to if you intend on dumping it in short order.

You can run the same comparison on '00s Impalas and the Buick equivalent (both generally regarded as supremely reliable cars). The Impalas got beat and thrown away. The Buicks are still around (proportionally).

You don't think Ford, or GM, or whoever, makes reliable models for the same reason you'd never consider buying a house anywhere other than a good school district. It's a self-reinforcing expectation foisted upon you by the kind of people you surround yourself with.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re talking about the difference between commercial and commuter use. We both know that they are not the same at all, and have different manufacturing environments, parts, builds, and specs. Clearly, this discussion is not about commercial vehicles. Go look at the list of most reliable cars. Toyota and Honda are always listed as number one and two. Ford isn’t ever discussed as "reliable". I think this goes way bey…

Wow, I was not expecting Ford transit vans to be above-average reliable, but a bit of searching around shows that indeed they are. Not as reliable as a Mercedes Sprinter, but I wonder if the operating costs are lower over the years (they cost roughly the same, which also surprised me) than the Mercedes.

I think that's just a reflection of how terrible the Euro-vans are in general. in North America they're not held in high regard by anyone other than the highfalutin taxi/airport shuttle/mobility van fleets that buy new and depreciate over the warranty period.

The Transit and the Sprinter (the latter of which has really gone down the tubes since it's '00s peak) might be "good" but that's like being MVP in a junior varsity game. Anyone operating them outside of warranty generally hates them compared to the Ford and Chevy vans they're replacing.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#464
post #82

This article takes an off-the-cuff comment from the CEO of Ford and reads too much into it IMO. He wasn’t saying dealerships are going away; he was actually saying the opposite. The point he was making was that Ford is going to adopt some of Tesla’s practices while using the dealership network to compete with them. Here’s the quote with more context: “I believe for retail, we have to -- it's kind of like what happene…

I honestly felt that this is where Sears dropped the ball. If any company should have had the "DNA" to compete with Amazon, it should have been Sears. Which basically owned the catalog/mail order space before the internet. They could have leveraged their large stores to be showrooms / distribution hubs (that they mostly already owned, which is why the private equity people were so interested in them, due to their rea…

> You visit a sears, you see what you want, you order it and in a couple of days you come back to pick it up.

Why would anyone want that? If I’m going to go so much as 15 minutes out of my way, I expect to leave with the item in my hand that day. That’s the killer advantage for brick and mortar retail.

I don’t even want to go to the store the first time, but I sure as hell don’t want to go twice if Amazon offers the same overall latency with zero trips to the store.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#465
post #354
post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there really that much service revenue for modern ICE cars that isn't stuff BEV cars need too? Modern powertrains are pretty bulletproof, 10k oil changes and 30k air filters will get you to 100k miles. "Tune ups" aren't really a thing anymore either, especially in the first 100k. Brakes? Maybe you're cutting out one or two pad slaps in that 100k. Oil changes? Yeah, you've eliminated those, the lowest margin servic…

I own a fairly reliable ICE car from 2009 with ~100k miles, and I've had to get servicing for belts, water pump, brake pads, sway bars, oil changes, etc. I estimate I spent about $5k over the life the car on servicing. That's excluding tires, wiper blades and air filter changes. Owners of less reliable ICE cars probably spend more.

It doesn't sound that reliable if you've had to replace that much already with just 100k miles.

I have two vehicles over 100k, one closing in on 200k soon, and my maintenance on both is less than 5k.

Of course, the part no one talks about:

1. How will you do a family vacation beyond the EV range?

2. Who pays to replace the ~$15k battery and when?

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#466
post #82

This article takes an off-the-cuff comment from the CEO of Ford and reads too much into it IMO. He wasn’t saying dealerships are going away; he was actually saying the opposite. The point he was making was that Ford is going to adopt some of Tesla’s practices while using the dealership network to compete with them. Here’s the quote with more context: “I believe for retail, we have to -- it's kind of like what happene…

Even if this is the case, rather than direct-to-consumer, this would STILL be a tremendous improvement in the car sales model and I definitely look forward to it!

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#467
post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe going direct is the secret plan, but I don’t see how they get there. Yeah, the dealership and the state level dealership associations aren't going to go out of business without some good fight. Even though I personally don't like the markup to be paid at the dealerships, but they exist for some good reasons: educate the consumers, financing, DMV paperwork and most importantly service your vehicles. EVs need m…

>> EVs need much less service visits but when they do - it's likely harder for DIYers to tinkle with. A car handle on a Tesla that needs replacing is $1,000.

That is just the price Tesla imposes on the costumer.

A decent right to repair would cover most of these kind of things

https://fighttorepair.org/

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#468
post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe going direct is the secret plan, but I don’t see how they get there. Yeah, the dealership and the state level dealership associations aren't going to go out of business without some good fight. Even though I personally don't like the markup to be paid at the dealerships, but they exist for some good reasons: educate the consumers, financing, DMV paperwork and most importantly service your vehicles. EVs need m…

>> EVs need much less service visits but when they do - it's likely harder for DIYers to tinkle with. A car handle on a Tesla that needs replacing is $1,000.

That's a luxury/high-tech car problem, not an EV problem. The problem is that currently, EVs only exist in that segment (excepting the Dacia spring, which is a basic car with a basic EV powertrain, but it's only available in certain markets)

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#469
post #369
post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m skeptical that this reorg will allow Ford to sell direct to consumers, and I haven’t seen any reporting saying that it will. Notably, Ford has explicitly said they’re not doing that: “We’re not keeping dealers in the mix 'for the moment.' We are betting on dealers for the long term. I want to make that really clear. I’m not mincing words. We will have new standards and a new experience. But we learned a lot by wa…

> Maybe going direct is the secret plan, but I don’t see how they get there. Yeah, the dealership and the state level dealership associations aren't going to go out of business without some good fight. Even though I personally don't like the markup to be paid at the dealerships, but they exist for some good reasons: educate the consumers, financing, DMV paperwork and most importantly service your vehicles. EVs need m…

> educate the consumers

I have yet to find to a situation where the overall direction of education flow was from the dealership salesperson to me.

That effect was significantly magnified when I was shopping for, and ultimately purchased, an EV. The only thing I can recall the salesperson knew more about that car than I did was where the dealership kept the keys.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want a non-negotiable price, just don't negotiate the price? I mean a firm asking price doesn't mean a good price.

That's not reasonable. The "negotiation" is literally built into the price, essentially both sides assume there will be as a nominal discount, and if there isn't one you're actually overpaying. So telling people "just don't negotiate" is about as reasonable as telling people "just don't tip" in mandatory tipping situations, it is a nice concept but ignores the economic reality of people trapped in the messed up syste…

I have never haggled on the price of a new car I just pay the sticker.
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