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Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

mitadmissions.org

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Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#461

Post by selimthegrim »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #332
uwuemu wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue exactly otherwise... with the advent of the web platform and frameworks like .net, the vast majority (and I mean like 95%) of developers will never touch anything ML related in their careers. I mean, I get that this is MIT and many of their students will end up working with ML, but applying that globally to CS is nonsense. Back when I was studying CS (cze) more than a decade ago, we had to pass linear a…

I remember finding myself in 3rd year Calculus in a Computer Science degree, and realizing: I don't have to be here! (only two years were mandatory) I've always enjoyed math and kept enrolling into it out of habit, until it became so esoteric, and my actual interests more solid and practical. I find a lot of my university career was fascinating and... useless. Not just from "I will never use this directly perspective…

Good luck deriving matrix identities without Calc III.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#462

Post by kenjackson »

ceeplusplus wrote: post #363
opportune wrote: post #211

I am so happy to see this. I went to high school in a bit of a backwater in the US. People don’t really go to selective colleges or care much about applying. It was only doing very well on standardized tests and spending time on the internet looking for info about colleges that led me to believe I could go to one of these places. I got into several and attended one, and I believe it greatly positively changed my life…

> huge slap in the face to social mobility out of the middle class No, it was an intentional move to restrict the number of Asians admitted because despite their best efforts to hide it, prestigious universities' data showed systemic discrimination against Asians in the admissions process (see: SFFA vs Harvard). Removing the SAT removes some of the data that opponents can use to sue them. One of the reasons the UC re…

> No, it was an intentional move to restrict the number of Asians admitted

This always seemed short-sighted to me. I think standardized tests provide one of the clearest opportunities for less advantaged students to make inroads. And while certain groups do better now, I don't think there is a better way than this clear metric for other groups to improve their standing.

Also, I think we simply overvalue going to Harvard. So instead you go to UVa or Puget Sound University. You "can" learn a great deal at these other places as well -- and maybe learn more given your existing level of achievement.

If we think long game on this, we will see that this is one of the best things to lift all boats.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#463

Post by kragen »

mirker wrote: post #160
Animats wrote: post #20

All MIT students, regardless of intended major, must pass two semesters of calculus, plus two semesters of calculus-based physics, as part of our General Institute Requirements. ... There is no path through MIT that does not rest on a rigorous foundation in mathematics, and we need to be sure our students are ready for that as soon as they arrive. For a period in the 1980s-1990s, you could argue that calculus was not…

There are discrete forms of “gradients” which generalize classical CS concepts. Submodular optimization, for example, covers many algorithms that search for optimal configurations of discrete sets, and it does so by arguments that are analogous to convex optimization.

Can it approach an optimum in time linear in the number of dimensions like gradient descent does, rather than quadratic or exponential or something?

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#464

Post by lliamander »

whynotminot wrote: post #435
notservile wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The research on IQ heritability is abundant. You’ll get death threats if you point out the research though. It’s inconvenient and correlates with SAT performance. Hence the big push to get rid of the SAT to try to hide the disparities in general cognition within groups and between groups. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-biosocial...

I was asking more about class divides becoming IQ based. Do you have a citation for that.

That's the whole thesis of The Bell Curve and also Coming Apart, both works by Charles Murray. There's plenty of citations in those works as well.

Edit: but beyond that, IQ-based class divides seems like a rather logical consequence of the following:

1. The heritability of IQ

2. Assortative mating

3. IQ being a significant determining factor of success in a given society

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#465

Post by killerdhmo »

xwdv wrote: post #111
toomuchtodo wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a technologist who wanted to attend MIT but, for reasons that are beyond the scope of this thread, didn't make the cut. I've still had the opportunity to work for the US federal government, unicorn startups, and a detector team at the LHC. As you said, "The acceptance rate is so low, that it should not be used as a measure of self-worth and accomplishment.", and enjoyable, meaningful work can still be accomplishe…

Likewise I know people who went to MIT and are now working shitty low paying jobs in unrelated fields of study and generally have failed to get their life together in reasonable time.

... the natural extension of you are not your MIT admission, is that your MIT admission is not you. Do you know they don't have their life together? What if they wanted something different than you? The tone of this comment sucks.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#466

Post by kragen »

simulate-me wrote: post #375
david38 wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is hubris. I can think of many adults that know nothing of Calc and do very in life and work. Knowing basic accounting, being able to fix things around the house, being pleasant to work with, etc are far more important.

> Knowing basic accounting, being able to fix things around the house, being pleasant to work with, etc are far more important. Those are totally useless skills. If you live in America and your only contribution to society is being pleasant, knowing how to fix things around the house, and basic accounting, then expect your livelihood to be replaced by someone willing to do your unskilled work overseas for a fraction…

Seems like that trend will result in wages between "America" (I guess you mean the US and don't know Bolivia is in America) equalizing with the rest of the world.

Also, fixing things is highly skilled work and very hard to offshore.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#467

Post by kevinventullo »

fshbbdssbbgdd wrote: post #78
Animats wrote: post #20

All MIT students, regardless of intended major, must pass two semesters of calculus, plus two semesters of calculus-based physics, as part of our General Institute Requirements. ... There is no path through MIT that does not rest on a rigorous foundation in mathematics, and we need to be sure our students are ready for that as soon as they arrive. For a period in the 1980s-1990s, you could argue that calculus was not…

I don’t remember the details anymore, but my combinatorics class required calculus. Something to do with Taylor series.

Generating functions, perhaps?

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#468

Post by selimthegrim »

notservile wrote: post #428
lliamander wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Removing admission tests was a huge slap in the face to social mobility out of the middle class. I agree, but arguably the benefits of the SAT with regard to class mobility is less than it was when it was introduced. The heritability of IQ, combined with assortative mating, means that increasingly class divides are forming around differences in IQ. I think many people are rightly concerned that this will eventually…

Class divides have always been around IQ in every society. Which is why CRT being pushed on children is so sick. They’re literally teaching children race Marxism. They’ve replaced the idea of class with race and now demand equity not between classes, but between races.

CRT is an outgrowth of critical _legal_ theory, which upon examination of the career of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Bean has ample justification for existing.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#469

Post by simulate-me »

kragen wrote: post #466
simulate-me wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Knowing basic accounting, being able to fix things around the house, being pleasant to work with, etc are far more important. Those are totally useless skills. If you live in America and your only contribution to society is being pleasant, knowing how to fix things around the house, and basic accounting, then expect your livelihood to be replaced by someone willing to do your unskilled work overseas for a fraction…

Seems like that trend will result in wages between "America" (I guess you mean the US and don't know Bolivia is in America) equalizing with the rest of the world. Also, fixing things is highly skilled work and very hard to offshore.

> Bolivia

Don't you mean the Plurinational State of Bolivia?

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#470

Post by outlace »

I used to be against standardized tests, but I grew up as a low-income minority in a single-parent household and I ended up getting into good schools pretty much only due to my high test scores, which has been a life changer. Other than test scores, I couldn't afford to do any fancy extra-curriculars. It felt a lot more achievable to know I can change my life if I just focus and do well on a test than it would if I had to somehow do a bunch of random things to look competitive on paper.
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