This is kind of a big deal in the real estate sector. The only reason that Zillow would sell everything right now is if they believed that the carrying costs of the properties until they (eventually) sell would eat all of their profits. They must be seeing flashing red signs across the board that there's a slowdown in the market and that scenario is exactly what will play out if they don't exit quickly. There's no wa…
It's a huge pivot to go from flipping houses to becoming a landlord. It would essentially be a disaster for them. That's a high-touch business and probably the costs associated with it, and the legalities around it are too complex. That's basically turning into an Avalon or something. The interesting question is around their bonds. They were basically convertible bonds which likely triggered, but now they have to pay…
Zillow to stop flipping homes, loses more than $550M, lays off 25% of staff
461–470 of 476 posts
Re: Zillow to stop flipping homes, loses more than $550M, lays off 25% of staff
#462Earlier quoted context omitted.
That doesn't sound like an algorithm mistake, just like a policy to match sales nearby at the same price because of the assumption that prices will just keep going up coupled with the stupidity of not tracking what you've bought so far - yikes! Oh, on second thought, I guess it could be algo as that previously bought nearby condo could have been priced using some crazy algorithm.
"Prices will keep going up" was a key belief that triggered the 2008 real estate crash. They keep going up until they don't, and then the house-flippers who weren't careful enough and the lenders that approved "liar loans" get burned badly.
Re: Zillow to stop flipping homes, loses more than $550M, lays off 25% of staff
#463Anyone whose main income is from other peoples rent has an incredible amount of explaining to do if they want to claim that they are anything but a useless leech.
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Re: Zillow to stop flipping homes, loses more than $550M, lays off 25% of staff
#464Good riddance, I hope this company burns to the ground The software developers working for this company knowingly tried to make algorithms to flip and profit off of something that should be a human right Replacing carpets and painting walls, trying to flip for a 20% profit, the people running Z must be geniuses As a millennial looking at 2 bedroom flats selling for £575k (780k usd, not far from a million dollars) in…
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Re: Zillow to stop flipping homes, loses more than $550M, lays off 25% of staff
#465Earlier quoted context omitted.
Traffic fascinated me - please post a link to that paper
I will see if I can find it, not all papers published in the 80's are online. (and I just looked the professor is emeritus at USC now but still around so I'll send him the question too)
Re: Zillow to stop flipping homes, loses more than $550M, lays off 25% of staff
#466Earlier quoted context omitted.
If there's no difference then there'd be no profit for Zillow and they wouldn't be doing this to begin with. Clearly there's a difference and it's morally bankrupt
His argument is that Zillow was providing a valuable service in the renovation process. Value-add allows them to charge for it.
Re: Zillow to stop flipping homes, loses more than $550M, lays off 25% of staff
#467Re: Zillow to stop flipping homes, loses more than $550M, lays off 25% of staff
#468Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not GP, but wiping out the externalities of property being used as a capital investment vehicle instead of for its inherent utility seems like it would inarguably, in any rational market system, make housing more affordable. It's self-evident that it would be better for anyone without a vested interest in denying the housing needs of the many. If there absolutely must exist a category of housing that is rented and no…
There are a lot of cross currents there. The old people with a reverse mortgage & the taxpayer subsidizing the associated losses. People who put much of their excess savings into an appreciating home they planned to sell to fund their retirement as they moved elsewhere to somewhere cheaper, but now have a home which as a step function is worth far less. People who would be quickly underwater if the property market ta…
>People who would be quickly underwater if the property market tanks deciding to jingle mail, leading to blighted streets for those who stayed.
I really don't understand this point. If it's a house where they want to live, they would just stay. If they can't afford the mortgage, yes, they can leave and buy any of the other now cheap property on the market, and the financial institution that took on the risk on lending can either sell it back to them or to someone else. If they don't live there, they're literally part of the problem of speculators treating houses as assets rather than housing, in which case they should be selling it to whoever actually wants to live there, yes.
Now as for the second part:
>As far as the state being a perfect provider to step in ... in the US about half of healthcare spending is fraud.
I feel like you choosing the only first world country with primarily privatised healthcare kind of strengthens my point, not sure what you're getting at here.
>Which land will the free or subsidized housing go on?
It shows just how badly treating housing as a capital asset rather than a public utility has corrupted how people discuss housing, that when I suggest that the government would handle any absolutely necessary rental housing, you immediately jump to low income people. And I don't blame you for thinking that, but that's basically the opposite demographic of who rental property should be for.
There's no inherent reason that low-income people should be renting rather than owning - they have no particular need for short-term housing. The only reason those two things are associated is because housing is treated as a capital asset.
Rather, the only people who have reason to rent rather than own are those who have a short term need for housing, which is going to be largely moderate-income people who move around for work, as well as students aiming for a higher-income job.
There are other systems, of course, where no one can claim physical ownership of something like land, and everyone rents - like Singapore's public housing model. Singapore's model, by the way, sidesteps the rest of your concern:
>Which land will the free or subsidized housing go on? Will the people spending a grand or two a month in property taxes want the elevated crime levels near their own front door?
Where will lower income people go? The same places everyone else goes. The only reason you have "bad" neighborhoods is because you've shoved all the economically disadvantaged people into one spot, and allowed the wealthy to cloister themselves into enclaves where the issues with poverty are out of sight and out of mind. As I said, Singapore's public housing distributes income levels much more evenly, and shows major benefits from it.
Re: Zillow to stop flipping homes, loses more than $550M, lays off 25% of staff
#469Earlier quoted context omitted.
Zillow wasn’t fixing them up, though. They were putting minimal-effort, superficial changes with zero care or actual investment, and then resisting for a higher price. They were scalping housing.
People who flip houses don't put in more money than they need to, that's a tautology. It still adds value to the market. "Scalping" makes zero sense in this context. Scalping exploits ticket mispricing and asymmetrical access to the market (waiting in line). Houses are bought at auction; you can't "scalp" at an auction. Try it at Christie's sometime.
They were literally scalping properties. And, like a scalper who has too much inventory, they’re now selling at a loss.
Re: Zillow to stop flipping homes, loses more than $550M, lays off 25% of staff
#470Earlier quoted context omitted.
His argument is that Zillow was providing a valuable service in the renovation process. Value-add allows them to charge for it.
That would make sense if Zillow employees were literally the people painting the walls. As it is (or was), there's probably a project manager that managed hundreds of houses, spends all day on the phone call painting companies, and then just assumes they do a good job. I'm perfectly capable of calling a painting company myself and don't need to pay Zillow thousands of dollars extra to do it for me.