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Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

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Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#461

Post by wolverine876 »

ethbr0 wrote: post #418
wolverine876 wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would seem unsurprising that the end result of this, upon pulling the "center" of each party towards its own extreme, is essentially what we've seen -- ~50% of conservatives now believe in vaccine/pandemic conspiracy theories, vs liberals support some extremists at the local level They wouldn't be pulled to extremes, they'd already be there. However, most research shows it's the right that's moved far. Look at T…

> already be there I see Trumpism as a cause, not a symptom. The right was casting about for a leader after McCain and Romney (both centrists) lost to Obama. Trump (and allies) spoke loudest, and so pulled the "party truth" to the right for the Republican party. Those Republicans who disagreed (of whom there were many) left politics or stopped speaking publicly about their disagreement. Or, over time, began to agree…

> My comment wasn't sharing blame. It was remarking on the fundamentally different organizations that the right and the left run, and who they allow to speak.

Fair enough, and I think that's a valuable point. However, I think the following is too:

>> What extremists?

> There's a well known group, who you can probably find by seeing who's on the Fox News homepage right now, who says things would would be considered far left.

> And yet, Biden still calls these people crazy and says no to the more extreme policy proposals. Big tent politics.

I don't think they are extremists, but if you can name some and their extreme policies, I'd go with it. Fox isn't a great source for deciding what is 'far left'.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#462

Post by wolverine876 »

janeroe wrote: post #436
wolverine876 wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is too bad, but it's your government. What are you doing about it? It's like the cliched response to complaints re OSS, but at least that's arguably not your and my responsibility; our government is. It's our job to care for it, make it work, and pass it to our kids in better shape than we got it. I find the government functions very well given it's necessarily a large institution (which all are bureaucratic and i…

> It is too bad, but it's your government. "Too bad, but it's your monarch. He's anointed by God. You must care about him". Not really a very strong argument. > Think of NASA - the greatest explorers in the history of humanity, with nobody even close - is a government agency. USSR had dozens of space projects, all by a government ministry. Doesn't mean you'd want to cherish the regime and all its inefficiencies & inj…

>> It is too bad, but it's your government.

> "Too bad, but it's your monarch. He's anointed by God. You must care about him".

It's not a monarch. I assume you live in a democracy. The reason you think people are anointed is that you don't participate. I promise: Participate, especially in local politics, and you'll see how much government depends on citizen participation, and how powerless most people make themselves by bizarrely excluding themselves.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#463

Post by wolverine876 »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #400
wolverine876 wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In "The Coddling of the American Mind" they cite studies showing that universities are more left-leaning than they've ever been. What do they mean by 'left-leaning'?: My professors might have been left-leaning, but I rarely knew their politics. The question is what the students are learning. Also, conservatives have moved far rightward, which might make others relatively more leftish. Also, reactionaries politicize…

> Also, conservatives have moved far rightward, which might make others relatively more leftish. I don't think this is true, I think the left-wing media has fixated increasingly on the far-right or exaggerating the extent to which individuals on the right are "far-right" which gives the impression that the right is drifting, but it's just the media changing how it represents the right. To be clear, the right is chang…

> cherry-pick the most overtly anti-science of conservative beliefs

It would be convenient to denigrate those facts in some way, but they are there: Conservatives (generally) back climate change denial, which will cause generations of catastrophe.

> colorblind approaches to combatting racism which are equally vilified and actively suppressed

I don't agree they are "equally vilified" as the overt and covert racism of many on the right. I think "actively suppressed" lacks much basis or meaning except conservative repetition.

There is debate on left, that's true, and that's a good thing.

> why are the left so frequently resorting to cancellation of intellectuals rather than debate?

I don't agree that it's a phenomenon of the left; conservatives repeating that claim doesn't make it true (any more than climate change denial). Look at the conservative efforts to silence protestors (laws limiting protests, legalizing striking them with cars), professors (such as the right-wing donor at UNC, threats to and reductions of tenure at major universities), students (e.g., the football players at U of Texas), etc. Look at Colin Kaepernick, who the President of the United States attacked and who lost his career. Look at many executive branch employees, in Washington and the states, who were fired for telling the truth and following the law, and judges who were attacked for the same. Right-wing politicians and journalists who are destroyed for challenging Trump or reactionary dogma. Etc.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#464

Post by wolverine876 »

BeFlatXIII wrote: post #450
wolverine876 wrote: post #196

This discussion (like many on HN) is a good example of the tool of skepticism about sources: Almost every HN thread has a large proportion of attacks on the source and/or their methods. But interestingly, much of it is not (IME, IMHO) 'news literacy' or skepticism, it's the opposite:. Distrusting everyone is as unskeptical and illiterate as trusting everyone. Skepticism requires examination of the facts, critical tho…

> if it repeats something we've already heard many times - memes, politicized talking points, etc. - it's not critical thinking This seems to be the modern default of online political arguments. Everyone spams their rehearsed talking points without any real engagement of what was being said. They may quote opponents, but the refutations often to have little or nothing to do with what was being refuted. Then again, pu…

> public debates have never had truth-finding as a goal: they’ve always been exhibitions to rally your base. Changing minds happens at the private scale.

That's defeatist. And the world has never had a public forum like the Internet. We're just learning how to use it well.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#465

Post by wolverine876 »

simiones wrote: post #426
wolverine876 wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the largest worker protests and strike in history happened in 2020 across India, and not 1 mainstream outlet in the US and UK covered it at all. Similarly, the miners' protests in NY were not covered in mainstream media. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=india+worker+protests+site%3Anytim... I didn't see the New York miner protests in the NYT in a quick search, but I lack search terms and time. Do you mean the protests in…

> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=india+worker+protests+site%3Anytim ... I am talking about the 2020 general strike(s) (trade unions estimate 250 million people joined, though others push for much smaller numbers): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_general_strike_of_2020 . I have not found a single article about this in the NYT, BBC, Washington Post. The Guardian in the UK did cover these. > Do you mean the protests in…

I'll just note that while many call the NY Times and the 'media' biased toward liberals or progressives, you are saying they ignore essential topics.

I wish all the critics would compare notes.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#466

Post by ethbr0 »

wolverine876 wrote: post #461
ethbr0 wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> already be there I see Trumpism as a cause, not a symptom. The right was casting about for a leader after McCain and Romney (both centrists) lost to Obama. Trump (and allies) spoke loudest, and so pulled the "party truth" to the right for the Republican party. Those Republicans who disagreed (of whom there were many) left politics or stopped speaking publicly about their disagreement. Or, over time, began to agree…

> My comment wasn't sharing blame. It was remarking on the fundamentally different organizations that the right and the left run, and who they allow to speak. Fair enough, and I think that's a valuable point. However, I think the following is too: >> What extremists? > There's a well known group, who you can probably find by seeing who's on the Fox News homepage right now, who says things would would be considered fa…

I've got a bit of a thing about naming politicians below singular offices. It seems like part of the problem: name recognition wins elections and donations.

But to talk about policies, I would call defunding all police, complete student loan forgiveness, banning nuclear power and crude exports, and opposing market based carbon taxes extremist.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#467

Post by dang »

NDizzle wrote: post #457
dang wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't post flamewar comments or use HN for political/ideological battle. We ban accounts that do that, regardless of which flavor they favor. Also, please don't use allcaps for emphasis - that's also in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html .

The statements I made are quotes by politicians and medical experts over the last 18 months. People have short memories unfortunately.

Ok, but that doesn't mean the posts weren't flamebait and that's what we're asking people not to do here. "It's a quote" is not a valid defense!

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#468

Post by [deleted] »

oefrha wrote: post #306
forz877 wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that not problematic? You make an extraordinary claim, but then "there is no time for me to back it up." But there was time to make the claim, and this is ultimately the problem. You have just accepted out of hand that it is truth and want others to accept it. Why should I trust anything you say, then? I don't doubt that there are biases, they're certainly are. But you're expecting us to just accept it out of hand…

> You have just accepted out of hand that it is truth and want others to accept it. No, I really don’t give a damn about whether others accept it. I can post my opinion simply as food for thought.

[deleted]

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#469

Post by betwixthewires »

ethbr0 wrote: post #408
rayiner wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go back and compare CNN reporting from today to the 1980s. And even the straight news is extremely partisan in story selection: compare the coverage of De Santis to Cuomo in 2020.[1] Plus, fully half the content on CNN (and 80% on MSNBC) is opinion. I’m not a partisan. I spent most of my life as a registered Democrat and read the NYT every day as recently as 2012-2013. But wokeness has definitely taken over and the p…

There was a quip that the key innovation of Fox News was to blur distinction between its news and opinion segments. Fox News news was traditionally (and still is, from what I can tell) actual news. What's not declared is the transition from a "news" segment to an "opinion" segment. People who weren't around forget than CNN up until ~1995 was literally just news, 24/7. Here's what's happening in the world. Once Fox Ne…

I don't think it's simply about what the market wants. If it were, you wouldn't have the majority of opinion-masquerading-as-news channels with a similar politic bent, you'd have it about down the middle, just like the consumers in the market itself.

I think the move to opinion is more about influencing decisions of the viewership than giving them what they want. Fox started it right around 9/11 as an approach to drum up support for war, and it worked, and the rest saw how effective that was and adopted it cautiously, of course the common thread and my implication is that there are agendas that they all have that this approach helps them achieve better than just delivering information would.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#470

Post by tsimionescu »

wolverine876 wrote: post #465
simiones wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=india+worker+protests+site%3Anytim ... I am talking about the 2020 general strike(s) (trade unions estimate 250 million people joined, though others push for much smaller numbers): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_general_strike_of_2020 . I have not found a single article about this in the NYT, BBC, Washington Post. The Guardian in the UK did cover these. > Do you mean the protests in…

I'll just note that while many call the NY Times and the 'media' biased toward liberals or progressives, you are saying they ignore essential topics. I wish all the critics would compare notes.

Well, media in the USA is often being accused of being left-leaning, when in fact it is almost universally right-of-center on almost every topic, except culture issues.

The claim is not necessarily that they ignore essential topics, so much as that they present a biased narrative of the world, even in the facts that they chose to cover at all - one biased against workers and against America's (perceived) enemies.

The people who accuse the NY Times of being biased towards liberals or progressives often forget how pro-war they were for example, how friendly they are to the military and security apparatus in general etc.

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