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One Bad Apple

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Re: One Bad Apple

#461

Post by zionic »

hackerfactor1 wrote: post #115
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #7

NCMEC has essentially shows that they have zero regard for privacy and called all privacy activists "screeching voices of the minority". At the same time, they're at the center point of a highly opaque, entrenched (often legally mandated) censorhip infrastructure that can and will get accounts shut down irrecoverably and possibly people's homes raided, on questionable data: In one of the previous discussions, I've se…

> I'm surprised, and honestly disappointed, that the author seems to still play nice, instead of releasing the whitepaper. I'm the author. I've worked with different parts of NCMEC for years. (I built the initial FotoForensics service in a few days. Before I wrote the first line of code, I was in phone calls with NCMEC about my reporting requirements.) Over time, this relationship grew. Some years, I was in face-to-f…

> There is nearly a 1-to-1 relationship between people who deal in CP and people who abuse children. And they rarely victimize just one child. Nearly 1 in 10 children in the US will be sexually abused before the age of 18.

These are clearly propaganda statistics. There is absolutely no way 10% of the US child population is molested.

The fact that you not only believe this, but repeat it publicly calls into question your judgement and gullibility.

You’ve been recruited to undermine the privacy and security of hundreds of millions (billions?) of people and indoctrinated with utterly ridiculous statistics. Your argument is essentially “the ends justify the means”, and it could not be any more ethically hollow.

Re: One Bad Apple

#462

Post by nyx-aiur »

gambiting wrote: post #452
nyx-aiur wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a stupid fallacy and it comes up every time something like this is discussed. You don't know if anything is or will be abused you expect it because you expect your elected government to do so. The problem here is with you or your electors not with the technology itself. You want to fix the symptoms but not the problem. As usual.

How so? The UK's snooper's charter that compels ISPs to save your entire browsing history for a year was only meant to be used to catch pedophiles and terrorists, and now 17 different agencies have been given completely warrantless access to the database, including the UK's Food Standards Agency(??!?!?!?). People have already been fired for abusing access too, so it definitely happens too. >>The problem here is with…

It's the exact same shit I was talking about instead of fixing your governing body you want to fix it with technology. All the crypto apologist are the same way if the government YOU are electing does something stupid you want to fix the symptom and not the governing body. You are just throwing around goal posts instead of working on the real problem.

Re: One Bad Apple

#463

Post by FeepingCreature »

hutzlibu wrote: post #429
FeepingCreature wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> About this time, someone usually mocks "it's always about the kids, think about the kids." To those critics: They have not seen the scope of this problem or the long term impact. There is nearly a 1-to-1 relationship between people who deal in CP and people who abuse children. And they rarely victimize just one child. Nearly 1 in 10 children in the US will be sexually abused before the age of 18. Maybe it's the fac…

"and instead massively step up monitoring requirements for families" Pls have a family first and then see if you ask for more state governence into your life? It is true, most abuse happens in the family, but there is also schools, churches, sports clubs, ... But the thing is, if the schools for example would have the stuff, with enough time (and empathy) to care about the actual children and talk with them and inter…

Honestly, if we take the ratio of 1 in 10 seriously, I think the time for human focus and caution has passed. That's an epidemic. To be clear, I'm not letting schools, churches, sports clubs etc off here; all those places clearly need massively increased external oversight as well. But at a 10% rate, we cannot exclude the family; it must be considered an institution in a state of failure.

Re: One Bad Apple

#464

Post by gambiting »

nyx-aiur wrote: post #462
gambiting wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? The UK's snooper's charter that compels ISPs to save your entire browsing history for a year was only meant to be used to catch pedophiles and terrorists, and now 17 different agencies have been given completely warrantless access to the database, including the UK's Food Standards Agency(??!?!?!?). People have already been fired for abusing access too, so it definitely happens too. >>The problem here is with…

It's the exact same shit I was talking about instead of fixing your governing body you want to fix it with technology. All the crypto apologist are the same way if the government YOU are electing does something stupid you want to fix the symptom and not the governing body. You are just throwing around goal posts instead of working on the real problem.

>>if the government YOU are electing

Except like I clearly said above, I'm an immigrant without the right to vote, so I'm not electing shit. Again, how exactly am I supposed to vote my way out of this?

Re: One Bad Apple

#465

Post by sbarre »

rdedev wrote: post #364
tdonovic wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Apple (its employees) aren't actually viewing the images, nor transmitting them. They mention somewhere that it's a low res proxy of the image, or something similar.

But wouldn't a low res image of CP be still classified as CP ? I guess the manual verification will ve done as a joint venture by apple and the authorities

> I guess the manual verification will ve done as a joint venture by apple and the authorities

Do we know this for sure? And even if it is, this is still apparently illegal under current law.

Re: One Bad Apple

#466

Post by nyx-aiur »

gambiting wrote: post #464
nyx-aiur wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the exact same shit I was talking about instead of fixing your governing body you want to fix it with technology. All the crypto apologist are the same way if the government YOU are electing does something stupid you want to fix the symptom and not the governing body. You are just throwing around goal posts instead of working on the real problem.

>>if the government YOU are electing Except like I clearly said above, I'm an immigrant without the right to vote, so I'm not electing shit. Again, how exactly am I supposed to vote my way out of this?

You can leave the country or you can be political active in other ways than direct votes. Don't wiggle your way out of your extremist position that you can't do anything except building technology which would be totally obsolete if you fixed your political problem.

Re: One Bad Apple

#467

Post by gambiting »

nyx-aiur wrote: post #460
matheusmoreira wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't know if anything is or will be abused Actually I do. Governments abuse their powers all the time. They have done it before, are doing it right now and will continue to do it in the future. This is not fallacy, it is fact. Here's an example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOVEINT The only solution is to take their power away. No way to abuse power they don't have. We must make it technologically impossible…

That's the exact same fallacy you are proposing to fix a symptom and not the problem. You want to reign in the government YOU ARE ELECTING TO GOVERN you with technology instead of real political work. Either vote different or get into politics and fix yourself. Your wikipedia link doesn't show anything regarding abuse of the governing body ALL of the examples are from private persons.

>>Your wikipedia link doesn't show anything regarding abuse of the governing body ALL of the examples are from private persons.

Have you even like....read the page they linked?

"Siobhan Gorman (2013-08-23). "NSA Officers Spy on Love Interests". Washington Wire. The Wallstreet Journal. "

Are NSA Officers "private persons" now? They are government employees, they were abusing the power they were given while employed by the government. It doesn't matter in the slightest if they were abusing the power for private or state gain, it's a state agency and its employees abusing the access, that implicitly makes it the state abusing the power they have.

Re: One Bad Apple

#468

Post by gambiting »

nyx-aiur wrote: post #466
gambiting wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>if the government YOU are electing Except like I clearly said above, I'm an immigrant without the right to vote, so I'm not electing shit. Again, how exactly am I supposed to vote my way out of this?

You can leave the country or you can be political active in other ways than direct votes. Don't wiggle your way out of your extremist position that you can't do anything except building technology which would be totally obsolete if you fixed your political problem.

>> you can be political active in other ways than direct votes.

Which is what we're doing here, by participating in protests, complaining to agencies and governing bodies as well as Apple itself against this technology. Or is this not up to your definition of "politically active"?

>>You can leave the country

I'm envious of your position in life where this is the first thing that springs to your mind, well done you.

>> Don't wiggle your way out of your extremist position that you can't do anything except building technology which would be totally obsolete if you fixed your political problem.

Uhm....are you sure you have the right argument there? Or maybe replying to the wrong person?

Re: One Bad Apple

#469

Post by hutzlibu »

FeepingCreature wrote: post #463
hutzlibu wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"and instead massively step up monitoring requirements for families" Pls have a family first and then see if you ask for more state governence into your life? It is true, most abuse happens in the family, but there is also schools, churches, sports clubs, ... But the thing is, if the schools for example would have the stuff, with enough time (and empathy) to care about the actual children and talk with them and inter…

Honestly, if we take the ratio of 1 in 10 seriously, I think the time for human focus and caution has passed. That's an epidemic. To be clear, I'm not letting schools, churches, sports clubs etc off here; all those places clearly need massively increased external oversight as well. But at a 10% rate, we cannot exclude the family; it must be considered an institution in a state of failure.

Well, there are still lots of people who take the bible literal:

"Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them."

https://www.bibleref.com/Proverbs/13/Proverbs-13-24.html

This is the ideological base for it, in my opinion. Unchecked authoritive power tpgether with physical violence. The thing is, the state institutions have not really a clean record on abuse either.

And I did not say anything about excluding the family from monitoring of abuse. I said I see no reason to increase the monitoring. With the meassure in place right now, you could spot plenty of abuse already everywhere - if it would be really about the children.

No easy problem, no easy solution.

Re: One Bad Apple

#470

Post by nyx-aiur »

gambiting wrote: post #467
nyx-aiur wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the exact same fallacy you are proposing to fix a symptom and not the problem. You want to reign in the government YOU ARE ELECTING TO GOVERN you with technology instead of real political work. Either vote different or get into politics and fix yourself. Your wikipedia link doesn't show anything regarding abuse of the governing body ALL of the examples are from private persons.

>>Your wikipedia link doesn't show anything regarding abuse of the governing body ALL of the examples are from private persons. Have you even like....read the page they linked? "Siobhan Gorman (2013-08-23). "NSA Officers Spy on Love Interests". Washington Wire. The Wallstreet Journal. " Are NSA Officers "private persons" now? They are government employees, they were abusing the power they were given while employed by…

Wow if you can't distinguish between rogue agents and an institutional abuse of power there is nothing left to argue.
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