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Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

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Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#461

Post by remarkEon »

jpetso wrote: post #369
jpetso wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that despite my national background, there are tons of people in my country whose ideas and principles I don't share, and lots of people from other countries/cultures that I would team up with anytime. Drawing a line primarily along cultural lines means ignoring or downplaying all of the other lines that other people might find similarly important or more so. Why would I bias my decisions about people over oth…

Having written this, I think it's worth pointing out the main flaw that I see in nationalism: it's that it uses culture and nations as a proxy for principles, as opposed to digging for the actual principles underneath. As an example, I stand for freedom of speech, in the form of a diverse, largely independent set of publishers and authors that allows me to make up my own mind by exposing me to different viewpoints. M…

>the main flaw that I see in nationalism: it's that it uses culture and nations as a proxy for principles, as opposed to digging for the actual principles underneath.

I think the problem that you are going to run in to is that culture and nations as a proxy for principles works pretty well since those things are highly correlated. Unless you have a strong civic identity that aggressively assimilates and ensures respect of those civic norms, you have an inevitable clash that just becomes a question of scale.

>If my country decides that Islamic Law or autocratic dictatorship is a better form of government than democracy, I'd rather drop my country than abandon my principles.

In your hypothetical, how exactly would this situation come about? You should be able to venture a guess.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#462

Post by hu3 »

deregulateMed wrote: post #438
ohashi wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems dramatic. It's a billion dollar ex-spy run company catering towards governments with seemingly no ethics. No offense to Apple but this is near state level actor as a threat and with enough motivation ($$$$$$$$) they will find ways to exploit Apple's software no matter what.

Sure, but their marketing still claims security.

That's what happens when Apple pays 100k for a critical bug bounty and governments pay millions for the same bug exploit.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#463

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

flavius29663 wrote: post #411
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the issue is that EU was founded with an idea that they can copy US creation pattern, but without sufficient consideration of the simple fact that there is a thousand plus years of history that is being crammed into respective citizens' heads including, but not limited to wars with neighbors. It is hard to forget blood; especially if survivors still have a state. Do not get me wrong. I like the idea of EU. I…

> I doubt EU would be willing to do the same things US did to maintain its grip. I think you meant war. I think the EU is unwilling to make even non-bloody sacrifices, like the US did in the beginning at the Connecticut Compromise (1787). Basically as early as 11 years after the independence, the large US states relinquished a lot of power to the smaller states. With that compromise they gave 2 senators to each state…

War, civil war or re-education of local populations.

Note that either of these would be unlikely to succeed. Just about every EU state has survived numerous occupations; some partitions; some ceased to be nation states. How can you possibly hope to force them to see themselves as Europeans first and nation A second? If anything, force or even threat of force will likely result further digging in.

Overall, I agree with your post though. I personally think both France and Germany simply use EU framework for their own purposes ( Germany actually just had an interesting case that may finally shed some light over whether EU law is above German law -- that should be fun to watch - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/09/eu-launches-le...).

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#464

Post by mihaaly »

reader_mode wrote: post #24
bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

>Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Because outside of your bubble nobody wants this. A random person from Bulgaria is going to have a very different culture from a random person from Netherlands. What do you think happens with power in such conglomerate ? If you want to see what happens when you create a forced conglomerate of different nations (but still more simi…

I belive there is a serious confusion here concerning the terms of nation, country, culture.

EU is made of countries and having countries merged does not mean that cultures has to be, actually hundrends of cultures and subcultures live together with other cultures in present countries, even as parts of nations, even inside cultures (subcultures).

It is a basic human need and necessity to collaborate, everybody wants and needs that!! (except those living in a lone grumpy bubble) Those not doing it are not really viable: see Yugoslavia. : )

The EU - and in fact many many countries with hudreds of years of success - is made of and founded by former arch enemies btw....

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#465

Post by ipaddr »

pell wrote: post #205
zpeti wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word radicalized is also way overused. Orban is seen as hateful or radicalising because he is against illegal immigration. He has made a big marketing point about this. But that doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate concerns about illegal immigration that Hungarians might have. Just because Western european nations have decided they don't mind if they add 1-2% yearly to their populations of a culturally total…

>Orban is seen as hateful or radicalising because he is against illegal immigration. He has made a big marketing point about this. I'm not going to go into the topic of migration and the "legality" of it. But the reason Orban is considered "radical" by many is not because of his stance on immigration first and foremost but because he's been dismantling democratic institutions left and right, starting with NGOs, the m…

You don't understand Hungarian history and why he has to dismantle those institutions. After the failed 1956 uprising these 'democractic institutions' became soviet levers of power with key left supports in power. After the fall of communism there was never a real purge as the left has been mostly in power. This is the purge. What gets rebuilt?

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#466

Post by sudosysgen »

crossroadsguy wrote: post #252
Dah00n wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know much about Hungary so could you provide a reason why it is bad "if EU lets China come into Hungary"? Unless it is because China Bad, then I'm not interested, but I'm hoping for something more interesting than that. Personally I would hate to see EU close in on itself and so it needs to align with outsiders. China seems just as good a partner as the other big markets to me.

You want someone to explain to you why a certain wine tastes nice but you’ve added a condition that the explanation must not include the most fundamental nature of its taste.

Is your point that "bad" is as essential and fundamental property to China as taste is to wine?

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#467

Post by jfengel »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #460
nindalf wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the parent's post FWIW. However, there is a strong tendency in mainstream thought to have great deference to "the People", however you define it. The voice of the People is the voice of God, in fact. So for a person to claim that well off people turned to radical thought out of boredom and ignorance might be correct, but would be considered not just outlandish, as you put it, but outright heresy. It's no…

You touched on a lot of important things and I will try to respond to all of them without distracting myself. I posit to you that 'people hurting and what not' are not merely think pieces ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillbilly_Elegy ). I remember driving through PA months before Trump's election and recall seeing some of the sadder signs you can read including "Save us Trump". It is not "triggering the libs"; it i…

And having elected Trump, what did they get aside from triggering the libs?

I see a fair bit of attempts at understanding. Liberals love to write books like "The Righteous Mind" and "What's The Matter With Kansas?", attempting to understand conservatives from a liberal point of view. I can't think of anything comparable on the right. Progressives seem to me desperate to understand and cater to conservatives, and it feels like the only thing conservatives want is to make my life harder.

It could very well be that I'm just not listening hard enough. That seems to be the response every time liberals lose elections: "understand harder", because the problem is with me. But I'm starting to think that maybe I do understand: they don't want anything from me except someone to be angry at, and whatever despair they're undergoing is more about the deliberate induction of that despair than anything I actually do.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#468

Post by ipaddr »

adolph wrote: post #303
pjc50 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's almost seven million displaced Syrians. The real failure is to not have dealt with the Syrian crisis, and now the demand to kick out the refugees, no matter how impractical this is or how lethal it would be to them, is rising.

Pop of Hungary is 10m. What % of Syria can be absorbed by Syria? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary

At 1% 100,000 or so max.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#469

Post by ModernMech »

nradov wrote: post #446
laurent92 wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average life in UK is to be a drunkard with bad teeth. Don’t take it bad, I love such friends and you may face difficulties with life, but while some find it poetic and party-prone, what does it tell about the country’s care of its citizen? Which other nation has a higher quantity of middle classes who drink themselves to near-death experience every second evening? What does it mean when the middleclass experienc…

You're exaggerating. The UK isn't even in the top 10 for alcohol consumption. https://www.alcohol.org/guides/global-drinking-demographics/

It's not top 10, but at 10.4 liters consumed per capita it looks like it might be number 11. Not exactly not a problem.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#470

Post by pell »

ipaddr wrote: post #465
pell wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Orban is seen as hateful or radicalising because he is against illegal immigration. He has made a big marketing point about this. I'm not going to go into the topic of migration and the "legality" of it. But the reason Orban is considered "radical" by many is not because of his stance on immigration first and foremost but because he's been dismantling democratic institutions left and right, starting with NGOs, the m…

You don't understand Hungarian history and why he has to dismantle those institutions. After the failed 1956 uprising these 'democractic institutions' became soviet levers of power with key left supports in power. After the fall of communism there was never a real purge as the left has been mostly in power. This is the purge. What gets rebuilt?

I fail to see how using spyware against journalists and critics is in any way linked to a failed uprising from 1956 or how his successful efforts to establish a media landscape that largely backs him is supporting "the real purge" you're describing. When Miklós Vaszily bought Index.hu how did this help remove the soviet levers?

I think you're being willfully naive here, I'm afraid.

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