One man’s fight for the right to repair broken MacBooks • Hacker News Board

Re: One man’s fight for the right to repair broken MacBooks

#461

Post by totalZero » Mon, May 24, 2021, 3:41 AM UTC

542458 wrote: post #205

nrp wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Repairability doesn’t make products fragile or unreliable, poor design and quality control does. Source: spent the last 18 months building a highly repairable product and putting it through the same reliability tests less repairable products go through. A lot of repairability just comes down to making replacement parts readily available too, which is orthogonal to the design.

I respectfully disagree. I’ve worked on products where field serviceability is a design goal. It absolutely can add complexity and cost - after all, it’s another design constraint. Rivets and glue are faster, cheaper, smaller, and often more reliable than screws. Soldered-on connectors are more vibration resistant and smaller than pluggable ones. Access panels can introduce structural weakness. Gluing or welding case…

You don't have to warehouse the old parts if you don't want to. When you deprecate them, you can simply license someone else to do so. They'd jump at the chance; parts are a profitable business.

Automakers have been warehousing parts for decades. Here's Toyota's catalog entry for a starter motor that fits a 1974 Corolla Coupe 1.6L A/T, which is available for under $200 via my local dealership: https://parts.toyota.com/p/Toyota_1974_Corolla-Coupe-16L-AT/...

The only reason to be anti-repair is if you want old devices to become useless so that more new devices get sold at retail. Automakers can't do this because if Toyota screws me on parts, I can buy a Honda next time. Apple is relatively peerless in many ways, and they also do their best to keep people locked in to the MacOS/iOS ecosystem.

Your point about packing and shipping is ludicrous, considering that all of the component manufacturers do that for all of their products. How do you think a device gets built? How does it get repaired under warranty? You just put the component in a bag, put the bag in a box with some foam, and voila. Electronic parts are fairly robust and there's a huge market for them (Newegg, Mouser, Digikey, etc).

When you say R2R "is not free," what you really mean is that repair is more economical for the user. The manufacturer isn't entitled to recurring revenue from replacement of potentially reparable devices, and shouldn't bake that revenue into their business model. That is an entirely anti-consumer practice whose existence is a very valid justification for regulators to open up a can of whoop-ass on device manufacturers.

Re: One man’s fight for the right to repair broken MacBooks

#462

Post by lotsofpulp » Mon, May 24, 2021, 3:46 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #443

lotsofpulp wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can think of societies with massive tax evasion, from all economic classes of people and where bribes are normal. Is there something wrong with laws requiring tax payments and banning bribes?

Take a look at economist C. Northcote Parkinson's books. He points out that when tax rates are 10%, people happily pay their taxes as their duty to live in society. People who cheat get ostracized. Various things start going awry at 20% and 30%, and at 40% tax evasion becomes the national pastime. People regard as fools people who don't evade taxes. Think about the people who are running away from California due to t…

That’s a separate issue. I was talking about countries that lack the tribal trust between its members such that it is presumed it’s every man or sub tribe for themselves.

This lack of trust is an unquantifiable cost in the progress of that society, one that the US was blessed to not be burdened with, and to which I credit the strength of the nation.

But that’s beside the point, which is I don’t think a simple statement like “if everyone breaks the law then the law is bad” is valid.

Re: One man’s fight for the right to repair broken MacBooks

#463

Post by m1el » Mon, May 24, 2021, 3:51 AM UTC

singlow wrote: post #458

m1el wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is the seller paying for the manufacture of these parts, or is Apple. I don't know the actual situation, but let's say for the sake of argument; - Apple pays $1M to make 1M chips, with the contract that forbids making these parts to sell third parties. - A Shenzhen shop pays $15K to make 10K of the same parts, the manufacturer breaches the contract, violates Apple's IP and makes extra parts for the shop. None of th…

So all of the senses of theft that do apply, which have been in use for millenia, are not "meaningful" because they do not meet the cause of your morality. Of course when Prometheus "stole" the fire from Mount Olympus he did not deny Zeus anything, but it was called theft. The fire that he brought to athens was the intellectual property of the Gods.

You may also find people murdered by words, yet no charges for murder.

Re: One man’s fight for the right to repair broken MacBooks

#464

Post by irjustin » Mon, May 24, 2021, 4:02 AM UTC

markdown wrote: post #459

snowwrestler wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IP theft easily satisfies the quoted definition in your first paragraph. That’s why you had to add an additional “key difference” in your last paragraph. That “key difference” is what got invented in the early 2000s as part of a concerted effort to justify IP theft. It was never part of the definition of theft before, and indeed it makes no sense; if you steal a Snickers bar from a store, you have not deprived them o…

Stealing a part made in a shop isn't stealing IP. Stealing schematics and methods would be, but not finished products.

And it's not stealing in the strictest sense. it was sold.

The manufacturer of the chip made an extra 10k of product to sell on the side, which is a breach of contract.

But no theft occurred because the manufacturer is supposed to have the schematics.

Legally a rather annoying, wordy space to live in for sure.

Re: One man’s fight for the right to repair broken MacBooks

#465

Post by totalZero » Mon, May 24, 2021, 4:09 AM UTC

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #297

dataflow wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Actually, it's quite deniable. You can't find Hardware repair manuals for many if not most new PC laptops. Others are now going in this direction following Apple's lead. Did you forget Apple literally goes so far as to make the screws nonstandard just deliberately out of spite for repair? Did you forget about Error 53? And mind you, Apple charges a premium. If Apple was charging $500 he would be taking that into ac…

"Others are now going in this direction following Apple's lead. Did you forget Apple literally goes so far as to make the screws nonstandard just deliberately out of spite for repair?" How do you know that it is to spite repair? Apple certainly knows that you can buy those screwdrivers for less than $10 from iFixit for the last 6 years. If it was to purely spite us, you'd think they'd make them more complicated or ch…

I agree with you in large part, but you are forgetting that pentalobe tools are not easy to find in some countries. In Chile, which is a relatively developed country compared to its neighbors, I went to a shop to buy a pentalobe screwdriver. It took me a couple of afternoons to find the shop. They quoted me something like $35 for a set of screwdrivers (they didn't sell them individually), or $30 to do the service for me.

Re: One man’s fight for the right to repair broken MacBooks

#466

Post by unishark » Mon, May 24, 2021, 4:21 AM UTC

whoknowswhat11 wrote: post #398

bstar77 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find Rossman insufferable due to his hyperbolic approach to shaming Apple and having a bone to pick with just about everyone- he's the definition of a narcissist. I agree in principle to "right to repair", but Rossman's motives are purely financial and self promoting. I've watched over 100 hours of his content and realized that his audience is primarily made up of anti-apple PC Master Race fanatics that just want t…

I could not have said it better. This apple employee (BTW - making $20/hr) didn't detect this weird thing I did to scrw up this laptop and so was going to send it to Apple tech people. Dude, if you can find folks to work for $20 / hr with the people skills to fix stuff day in and day out for while dealing with insane repair volume - you could manage your own apple store. Here's the bottom line as an actual customer.…

And I've had motherboards replaced by Toshiba, Fujitsu and just about everyone else whenever there's a major problem with an electronic device under warranty. Seems like the default "nuclear option" they use whenever the problem is non-obvious. And it didn't fix the problem more often than not.

Also I have a few ancient apple devices that work fine as ever. Though my wife does have a solid track record in destroying them (or any other brand).

Rossman's complaints didn't really bother me though. It's like a car mechanic griping at the manufacturer for making their life difficult, or a patent lawyer bashing the USPTO. Just the kind of thing you'd expect.

Re: One man’s fight for the right to repair broken MacBooks

#467

Post by nine_k » Mon, May 24, 2021, 4:25 AM UTC

pembrook wrote: post #428

swiley wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah no that's bullshit. (and a change of subject) We're not asking for modular connectors (although those are nice) or larger competents. we're asking Apple (and everyone imitating them) to stop artificially preventing people from replacing parts (either via deals with suppliers that prevent people from buying them or via software lockouts.) People do surface mount rework all the time (I think the guy TFA is talking…

> “People do surface mount rework all the time” What percentage of Apple customers are doing surface mount rework, or even hiring other people to do this, in your estimation? My guess is less than .01%. And how much could that really be increased if Apple were forced to make their parts accessible and available in the aftermarket? Vs the carbon footprint of the extra manufacturing effort and having to set up distribu…

How many people would actually fix a broken suspension on their car by themselves at home? 0.001%, or whatnot.

Now imagine that you have to scrap your car when suspension breaks, instead of bringing it to a car repair shop and fix it at the 20% of the cost of a new one. Especially if you bought the car just 6 months ago.

But now, if you break the screen protection glass of an iPhone, nobody can legally replace it but Apple, to say nothing if the trickier parts like the battery or the screen.

Re: One man’s fight for the right to repair broken MacBooks

#468

Post by creato » Mon, May 24, 2021, 4:35 AM UTC

spamizbad wrote: post #401

paulgerhardt wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By volume, the chips on the open market aren’t stolen and most aren’t counterfeit. Most are legitimate and a fair amount of the suspiciously cheap parts are binned or older revisions. The scale of the chip marketplace is more akin to sum of the agricultural output of California’s Central Valley - not your weekend farmers market. No one is messing around with stolen parts in these kind of quantities. The reason compan…

Right to repair would actually ease this burden: Apple manufactures very few components on its devices. Apple prevents its suppliers from selling to third parties (which wouldn’t necessarily be a repair shop but someone like digikey or mouser) of some pretty basic components that do not contain any real secret sauce (we are talking about things like voltage regulators here) The auto industry has widespread part avail…

> The auto industry has widespread part available for decades with no ill effects.

That depends on who you ask. Car dealerships probably think they have suffered great ill effects from the existence of independent repair shops.

Re: One man’s fight for the right to repair broken MacBooks

#469

Post by hellbannedguy » Mon, May 24, 2021, 4:39 AM UTC

pembrook wrote: post #428

swiley wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah no that's bullshit. (and a change of subject) We're not asking for modular connectors (although those are nice) or larger competents. we're asking Apple (and everyone imitating them) to stop artificially preventing people from replacing parts (either via deals with suppliers that prevent people from buying them or via software lockouts.) People do surface mount rework all the time (I think the guy TFA is talking…

> “People do surface mount rework all the time” What percentage of Apple customers are doing surface mount rework, or even hiring other people to do this, in your estimation? My guess is less than .01%. And how much could that really be increased if Apple were forced to make their parts accessible and available in the aftermarket? Vs the carbon footprint of the extra manufacturing effort and having to set up distribu…

The Right to Repair Movement is bigger than Apple.

It's all electronics, vechicles, Swiss watch parts (I repair watches, and a few years ago Rolex, and The Swatch Group decided to nix all Independant Watch Repairers Parts Accounts.), appliances, John Deere Tractors, etc.)

I guarantee more people would look to repair their broken devises.

The Right to Repair movement is all encompancing.

My biggest gripe isn't even with electronics, it's these pricy vechicles we are buying with priority repair information.

If we could keep cars on the road longer, and my washing machine spinning a bit longer, we could lesson our Carbon footprint. I do see by repairing our stuff, we would be greener in the long run.

I'm kinda with you on the "green card" strategy a bit, but on a different level.

I noticed California trying to pass Right to Repair bills these last few years. They are using E-waste as the selling point. I would rather they just lay it out for their constituents.

Like these companies do not want anyone working on their products because they make more money by repairing the broken products themselfs (Vertical integration), or force you to buy a newer version of their product when that day comes.

I guess they feel using Green, e-waste, carbon footprint is an easier sell? (I don't feel that is the right direction though.)

I wish they would just be honest, and tell the truth.

You bought the devise (Car, computer, washing machine, tractor, blah, etc), and you should have a reasonable way to repair it when it breaks down.

(California has failed to pass two Right to Repair bills. Let's get vocal with our representatives. Email those loafers. Whenever I think about Right to Repair I picture a small farmer trying to replace a priority sensor on that shiney Deere tractor in the middle of a humid field. Bugs sticking to his perspiring skin. He replaces the sensor, and gets in the cab. The tractor is bricked, and won't do anything. Ouch!)

Re: One man’s fight for the right to repair broken MacBooks

#470

Post by hellbannedguy » Mon, May 24, 2021, 4:49 AM UTC

nine_k wrote: post #467

pembrook wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “People do surface mount rework all the time” What percentage of Apple customers are doing surface mount rework, or even hiring other people to do this, in your estimation? My guess is less than .01%. And how much could that really be increased if Apple were forced to make their parts accessible and available in the aftermarket? Vs the carbon footprint of the extra manufacturing effort and having to set up distribu…

How many people would actually fix a broken suspension on their car by themselves at home? 0.001%, or whatnot. Now imagine that you have to scrap your car when suspension breaks, instead of bringing it to a car repair shop and fix it at the 20% of the cost of a new one. Especially if you bought the car just 6 months ago. But now, if you break the screen protection glass of an iPhone, nobody can legally replace it but…

Vechicles have a lot of propiatiary information in them. We are dumping vechicles because Independant mechanics don't have access to repair information.

I believe only one state, which I can't spell, has a Vechicle Right to Repair law.

I went to automotive school, and have been a part time mechanic. The amount of vechicles going to the scrap yard over relatively minor problems I find disheartening.

I agree with your statement emphatically. I just wanted to add vechicles to the Right to Repair debate.