Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's basically both. When I graduated with my CS degree, I was _thrilled_ to be offered 50k. Now new grads feel lowballed at 200k TC. So hard not to say that the market hasn't adjusted somewhat. At the same time, part of the reason companies even have to pay so much is because they've made interviewing so damn hard. I personally know many people at great companies like Google and Twitter who are _desperate_ to change…
> At the same time, part of the reason companies even have to pay so much is because they've made interviewing so damn hard. I don't agree at all. Pre pandemic I worked as a professional software engineering interviewer for a largish recruiting company. I did 400+ ~2hr interviews over about a year. We did not put forward the vast majority of people I interviewed. Lots of people on HN, and certainly lots of people who…
I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages
461–470 of 583 posts
Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages
#462> ...this moronic interview practice would alienate an obvious asset > The lack of faith in our fellow humans is disgusting. This kind of catastrophizing and dismissive language makes me want to ignore everything the author says. If you think being evaluated in an interview setting is somehow unfair, I think you should consider whether your attitude is the problem. If you are actually good at leetcode and continue to…
Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages
#463Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're in Japan, yeah? Seems like that might be a barrier if you're applying for SV jobs.
Not applying to those eh. Then again, remote positions suffer from exactly the same symptoms.
Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages
#464Earlier quoted context omitted.
But that's still not a shortage. The government hasn't imposed a wage cap. Employers can just increase wages to the market rate.
No, sometimes there is no zone of possible agreement (value produced is below market rate). In this case you can both have shortage and unemployment at the same time. Example, you have labor force of 10 people. All jobs have mandatory stay of 2 years. 6 companies have an opening each that pays 1 mil/year. The openings are staggered so 3 jobs are available on odd and 3 on even years (and last 2 years). 50 jobs are pos…
You might as well make an argument based on the premise that pigs can fly. Contracts like that are basically unheard of in the US, outside of top executives and a few rare industries like professional sports.
Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages
#465Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is what I call the "Perfect World Fallacy". Yes, in a perfect world, you'd be absolutely right. But that's not the reality we're living in – in particular, that's not the reality small and young companies are living in. When you're scaling up, or when you're short on staff, and there are fires to be put out everywhere , you just don't have the capacity to design and test those perfect processes. Where are they s…
Yes, in a perfect world, you'd be absolutely right. A lot of companies choose not to do process oriented work, and just wing it instead because they believe they can go faster. That's fine. It's a choice driven by resources. What's not fine is complaining that someone you hire is "bad" because they get stuff wrong when you're forcing them to work without a process-based safety net. People will always make mistakes. I…
Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages
#466Earlier quoted context omitted.
In economic terms, there is no shortage. There's a shortage in common parlance terms, sure. There is an easy solution - pay market rates. When people say there's a shortage of engineers, they mean there's a shortage of engineers at the price they're willing to pay.
No, they mean there is a greater lack of engineers compared to other occupations requiring similar levels of education and therefore we should put more effort into educating and importing engineers. Saying we shouldn't focus on getting more engineers in those cases is just dumb, the economy would greatly benefit, you just want to protect your currently privileged position at the cost of society as a whole.
Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages
#467Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages
#468Earlier quoted context omitted.
Difficult when you're an immigrant. I moved to Canada for this reason, and though the tech scene is great here (Toronto at least), it sucks how everyone here talks about how "terrible" the tech scene is wants to move to SF instead. Feels like a never ending cycle.
I realize that this comment makes me sound ungrateful - I'm not! But just something I wanted to mention lol.
Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages
#469Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are also a lot of engineers out there with 1 year of experience x 10 (or even 20 times), or even 20 years of experience with some narrow niche technology that no longer applies - but want to be paid like they have been keeping on top of things and learning broadly for 20 years. A solid experienced engineer is worth their weight in gold. A lot of folks consider themselves solid experienced engineers who couldn't…
I’m not one to do the boss’s work for them, but you’re observations aren’t wrong. Your expectations are. Personally, I am thankful to be young, single, and have a lot of free time to keep up with things myself. But I have no interest in the society you seem to desire. This business of expecting constant self-education from workers alienated from the product of their labor or any reason to appreciate the daily grind t…
If you aren’t able to do the job (defined by your peers and the market), you either don’t get paid, or you have to force the market to pay you or change the job, despite not doing the original job (often through legal threats/strikes). It’s a market protectionism vs market need thing.
We seem to be advocating here that the best solution (software, market) should win, and that’s what I’ve seen in the global marketplace where legal threats like strikes generally have low impact.
What I’ve seen in other areas where the legal situation allows more leverage from labor is happier but fewer and lower paid labor, in often a much smaller market. Essentially a ‘I got mine’ type setup where incumbents get good slots and it’s super hard to get into once established because the pie overall is smaller and guarded. It screws over the newcomers and unestablished in favor of the incumbents.
China has started to export some really amazing home grown tech (including software) in some verticals, and if you think they give a rats ass about EU, US, etc. programmers - well, they don’t. Just like French don’t really care about Japanese labor conditions.
So we either wall off that software (often to everyone else’s detriment - those would be good products for less cost otherwise for people to use) to protect the local labor/market conditions and cause distortions elsewhere, or.... keep up? Japan is notorious for the protections it has, and is terrible software wise almost everywhere. Pretty solidly stuck in the late 80’s when they were the newcomers and were actually innovating.
And if we aren’t even trying to keep up, well - that just means the people who are will win/define the end state won’t it?
It’s the harsh reality of the real world. EU has been going the way of protectionism for a long time, which is great from a ‘retirement community’ type sense, but there is a reason there aren’t many cutting edge tech firms originating there. It’s pretty clear from the constant handwringing from the EU on anything regarding tech or competitiveness that they know it too, but can’t make the trade offs to fix it. Great if you’re already established and looking to keep things cushy, pretty terrible if you’re trying to get established though.
Like the thread with the folks who broke into tech by problem solving a case as a kid - imagine if they wouldn’t have been allowed to shell script until they’d gotten certified or joined the appropriate union?
It’s also why salaries are generally so much lower there for engineers. The real world doesn’t much care about what we (as producers or market participants) want in an abstract ‘it’s not fair’ sense, it’s about the economics of the markets and the needs and who can meet them best. If someone can get me firewood for $5 at the same or better quality as the person selling it for $10, it would require a lot to not take the $5 person up on their offer for the vast majority of people. It’s what has led to a massive expansion in wealth for all humans, as we constantly look to optimize and create more value for less cost.
If someone has 20 years of experience in tech x, but I use tech y - and they have shown zero interest in, and can’t demonstrate how to apply that experience in tech x to tech y - why should I or anyone be paying them for something that is not applicable or helpful to me at all? So they can feel like it wasn’t wasted? Good for them, bad for me.
Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages
#470Hard to take this seriously with all the straw men and broad generalizations. Reality check: there has never been a hotter seller's market for software engineering talent. The fact that you have not landed a job does not mean that supply is not short in general. Rather than blowing your stack at some recruiter who you heard on a podcast interview, you might want to reflect on yourself and how you might be coming off…
It's basically both. When I graduated with my CS degree, I was _thrilled_ to be offered 50k. Now new grads feel lowballed at 200k TC. So hard not to say that the market hasn't adjusted somewhat. At the same time, part of the reason companies even have to pay so much is because they've made interviewing so damn hard. I personally know many people at great companies like Google and Twitter who are _desperate_ to change…
The size of the company didn't matter - in fact, the smaller the company, the more difficult and onerous the process was. One place with six employees asked for a full day's work (offering $150 compensation). One place turned me down because I didn't have enough Scrum experience and the Scrum Master - a real job title apparently - didn't think I'd be a good fit.
So, "false negative" is right.