Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time • Hacker News Board

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#461

Post by phd514 » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 4:13 PM UTC

_nckn wrote: post #136

whiddershins wrote: post #89

In my opinion the main problem for religion right now is the failure to explain their arguments at the highest intellectual level, publicly, consistently. Once I was exposed to better theology and philosophy of Christianity I was blown away. Edward Feser’s ‘The Last Superstition’ helped open this up. I have no idea why the level of discourse is on average so primitive, I think church leaders have been systematically…

I thought I knew what Christianity was, growing up in church. After I attended a theological seminary, I realized I knew nothing. Also I stopped debating religion with people online because I realized majority of religion debates are extremely shallow, yes even those with popular sciences like Richard Dawkins are shallow. On the other hand, being just a regular member of my church, I also don't want to bring my backg…

I've come to a similar place after doing graduate work in Christian theology. The theology, philosophy, and literature of the Bible is the most-studied of any book in the last two millennia and pretty much any question or objection that can be raised about it has been addressed by some of the greatest minds in history. You might not find their conclusions satisfactory, but a serious criticism of Christianity must at least acknowledge and engage with that work.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#462

Post by gonehome » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

AuthorizedCust wrote: post #442

gonehome wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up mainline Protestant too before throwing it away (I was young ~12 which makes it easier). My objection is to the broken nature of the reasoning and how that tends to corrupt evidence based reasoning elsewhere most of them time (though weirdly not always - people are inconsistent). If the fundamentalists are a problem, maybe there’s a problem with the fundamentals? Obviously religious people remain the vast m…

> If the fundamentalists are a problem, maybe there’s a problem with the fundamentals? That line would only hold if fundamentalists have correctly identified the fundamentals. I wage they have badly missed it, which is why their theology is so bad. > being a good person or not is largely disconnected from religiousness Being a good person is not the primary point of religion. It is rather a hoped for outcome. Religio…

The thing that scares me about it is when people believe crazy things, they're more likely to believe other crazy things. This means even if most people most of the time are perfectly pleasant, they can get swept up in other stuff that gets out of hand and hurts people. If you can't persuade someone with evidence based reasoning because their position is based on 'faith' or belief in the face of contrary evidence I don't know what to do with that.

There are forms of religious people that dismiss all the 'crazy' things and just have some vague mysticism - which is probably the least harmful form, but is a little odd to me. People like to feel a part of something grand I suppose - but we already are. Existence is pretty amazing even without the human religious myths being true. Maybe one day the myths will be just a part of our collective history (as many older ones currently are).

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#463

Post by ketzo » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

jordanmorgan10 wrote: post #222

It's interesting to read a HN thread regarding theology. It seems there is quite an interest in the topic, and affirms another thing I tend to see: That many in this field identify as a Christian but don't really seem interested in saying so unless it's in a thread which expressly mentions it. Maybe it's my own bias and I'm just viewing it that way, as a Christian myself, as it feels hard to talk about it within the…

Cultural Christianity versus theistic Christianity in action. Anecdotal, but many, many more people had to go to church as kids than actively believe today.

The problem is that this leads to people who feel entitled to a space in the conversation (because it was part of their upbringing), but bring very little love or understanding to it.

(And I say this as someone who was raised in the Church and left it pretty early on).

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#464

Post by dawg- » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

mint2 wrote: post #434

dawg- wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I became an atheist/agnostic as a teenager and now in my late 20's I have slowly come back to religion. So I am really interested in this topic. My comment is specifically about online atheist communities, because I think they are often toxic to both religion and to atheism itself. A lot of these communities are hyper-focused on fundamentalism, to their own detriment. These online atheists communities can be very unf…

I don’t understand atheist online communities like you talk about. I’m very much an atheist, but I’m baffled by anyone who desires to have atheist get-togethers. What is the point? is it like fake bacon for people who like the taste of being preached to and preaching, but are atheist? Religious people do it because their are supposed to but what reason would atheists do it? When you were exploring atheism why did you…

People tend to participate in online communities that affirm their sense of identity. Maybe people who get really involved are those who see atheism as a more important aspect of their identity?

I was definitely turned on to atheism on the internet, but I never really stuck around those forums. I grew up in a fairly liberal Catholic church, so I didn't really relate to all the vehemence against fundamentalism. Even though I grew up in a church, I didn't even know about "young earth creationism" until I learned about it from atheists on the internet. In my science class in Catholic school, we learned all about evolution. We used the same textbooks as the public schools. I don't remember hearing anything bad about LGBT, though I'm sure people talked about it since it was the early 2000's and gay marriage was still a real widespread controversy, as incredibly dumb as that seems now.

Overall I guess my experience was very different from someone who grew up conservative protestant and found atheism. As a result I never hated religion, just didn't believe in it for a while.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#465

Post by gspr » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 4:16 PM UTC

AuthorizedCust wrote: post #102

So many of the comments here are affirming what I have long observed: much anti-religious sentiment (“much”, not “all”!) is actually a reaction to fundamentalism, which is the bad theology of scriptural literalism, which brings heresies like hating LGBT, insisting the Bible is also a science textbook, superstitious views of certain Middle Eastern lands, and more. Growing up as a mainline Protestant, I thankfully didn…

Even without the hate, isn't it harmful to indoctrinate children into believing in fantasy?

Sure, adding hate makes it far worse, but one fantasy god with a fantasy origin story and fantastical powers is one too many.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#466

Post by dcolkitt » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 4:16 PM UTC

gonehome wrote: post #428

AuthorizedCust wrote: post #102

So many of the comments here are affirming what I have long observed: much anti-religious sentiment (“much”, not “all”!) is actually a reaction to fundamentalism, which is the bad theology of scriptural literalism, which brings heresies like hating LGBT, insisting the Bible is also a science textbook, superstitious views of certain Middle Eastern lands, and more. Growing up as a mainline Protestant, I thankfully didn…

I grew up mainline Protestant too before throwing it away (I was young ~12 which makes it easier). My objection is to the broken nature of the reasoning and how that tends to corrupt evidence based reasoning elsewhere most of them time (though weirdly not always - people are inconsistent). If the fundamentalists are a problem, maybe there’s a problem with the fundamentals? Obviously religious people remain the vast m…

> Obviously religious people remain the vast majority and being a good person or not is largely disconnected from religiousness.

Religiosity is highly inversely correlated with criminality amount Americans.[1] Religious people also donate significantly more money to charity. To a large extent religious participation does seem to make people behave more pro-socially.

It's certainly not the only way to promote ethical behavior. But even as an atheist, I'll freely admit that religion serves a pretty beneficial important role in our society. A role that we haven't really figured out how to replace with secular counterparts.

[1] http://marripedia.org/effects_of_religious_practice_on_crime... [2] https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/oct/30/religious-p...

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#467

Post by LargeWu » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

tenacious_tuna wrote: post #287

CedarMills wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it heavily depends on the church and community. One of the reasons we are staying in our current church is because we're open to a wide community (multi-ethnic) with the same core values. Our kids grow up in this community but at the end of the day, it will be their decision if they decide to no longer attend.

I also grew up in a Christian house and am now atheist--I never understood how people could reconcile "church shopping" for a community that aligns with their views (e.g. not homophobic) with the notion that the core religious concepts are supposed to be infallible. If you disagree with various churches on some doctrinal/sociological point, how do you know that your current church is correct on God existing, or knowi…

I get what you're saying, but there's plenty of disagreement on what those concepts even are.

td;dr: Denominations vary wildly, and it's almost impossible to separate one's personal biases from choosing a congregation.

For example, Catholicism is very heirarchical, stating that one cannot receive salvation except through the Catholic Church. Methodism states that good acts + belief are the gateway to heaven. Lutheranism promises salvation to all that believe in Christ.

Or take the infallibility of the Bible. The Roman Catholic faith places a lot of emphasis on church doctrine, which is based on the Bible to be sure, but also a lot of church constructs. Baptists believe in a very literal interpretation of the Bible. Mainline protestants emphasize historical context and nuance. ELCA does not even claim the Bible is the literal word of God.

Plus, individual congregations within a denomination might have differences in emphasis, sociopolitical leanings, etc. It's important to know that "The Church" is in many cases, and especially for Protestant denominations, made up of congregations from the bottom up, and reflects the aggregate of its membership.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#468

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

paulryanrogers wrote: post #189

AuthorizedCust wrote: post #102

So many of the comments here are affirming what I have long observed: much anti-religious sentiment (“much”, not “all”!) is actually a reaction to fundamentalism, which is the bad theology of scriptural literalism, which brings heresies like hating LGBT, insisting the Bible is also a science textbook, superstitious views of certain Middle Eastern lands, and more. Growing up as a mainline Protestant, I thankfully didn…

After being raised in a non-Fundamentalist denomination I'd say the progressive ones are more insidious and no less harmful. Their foundations are all the same text, no matter how literal or figurative they interpret it. IME they usually also teach the same bad ways of thinking: emotion over logic, testimony over hard evidence, authority beyond your understanding, etc.

[deleted]

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#469

Post by hajile » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

cogman10 wrote: post #341

baryphonic wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a "good person?" And do you really think people who believe in God are just listening to "fairy tails (sic)" so they can be face the reality of death? Is that really the best portrayal of Christians you can come up with?

> What is a "good person?" I know why you are asking this, but honestly it's a silly question. Most humans have empathy. Most humans know "things and people that hurt others are bad. Humans helping others are good". For the few that don't, we've got legal codes built on the same principles. The bible has very little morality in it that's "good" and a lot of really questionable moral statements. For example, beating s…

> Exodus 21:16 KJV And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

The only lawful way to enter slavery was debt. Jews were freed in seven years and non-Jews in at most 40 years. This would actually be indentured servitude. Barbaric by today’s standards, but eminently humane by all other standards until the last 100 years or so.

> Exodus 21:20-21 KJVS [20] And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. [21] Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

The punishment implied here is death (an eye for an eye).

Someone owes you a ton of money. How do you get it from them? Today, large scale professional lenders spread out risk, but that wasn’t always the case. Instead, historically, not paying meant selling them into slavery to recoup what loss you could. Now, how do you ensure you get your money through their labor?

The logic follows. Likewise, if killing your slave risks your own death, it’s not something you’ll take lightly. If you did give out such a beating, you’ll be praying they pull through and are likely to never do it again. This falls into a similar category:

> Exodus 21:18-19 KJVS [18] And if men strive together, and one smite another with a stone, or with his fist, and he die not, but keepeth his bed: [19] If he rise again, and walk abroad upon his staff, then shall he that smote him be quit: only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall cause him to be thoroughly healed.

In fact, I don’t think there was a penalty if the slave fought back against such a beating.

Even so much as knocking out a tooth was reason to be forced to free your slave.

> Exodus 21:26-27 KJVS [26] And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake. [27] And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

Once again, such severe restrictions did not exist anywhere else in all known history. Jesus said that some restrictions (he directly referenced divorce) were less that God really desired because of humanity’s stubbornness. Divinely inspired or not, they were still revolutionary in their morality.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#470

Post by sethc2 » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

AuthorizedCust wrote: post #442

gonehome wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up mainline Protestant too before throwing it away (I was young ~12 which makes it easier). My objection is to the broken nature of the reasoning and how that tends to corrupt evidence based reasoning elsewhere most of them time (though weirdly not always - people are inconsistent). If the fundamentalists are a problem, maybe there’s a problem with the fundamentals? Obviously religious people remain the vast m…

> If the fundamentalists are a problem, maybe there’s a problem with the fundamentals? That line would only hold if fundamentalists have correctly identified the fundamentals. I wage they have badly missed it, which is why their theology is so bad. > being a good person or not is largely disconnected from religiousness Being a good person is not the primary point of religion. It is rather a hoped for outcome. Religio…

Exactly. Fundamentalists miss the actual fundamentals.

People mistake the American Evangelical Christianity that is a few hundred years old for the church established by the apostles nearly 2000 years ago. That church was it which considered the weak as equally valuable as the strong, that insisted on helping the poor, that believed men and women both to be of the utmost value. That established hospitals to care for the sick. All of these things were not the norm. The weak were considered less valuable. Women were not worth as much as men. Sick people should be avoided. The poor aren’t worth helping.

People are rightfully scornful of American evangelicalism, but they throw the baby out with the bath water and try to pretend that the orthodox (in sense of true and right) church has not done tremendous good in this world.