Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution' • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#461

Post by kiwijamo » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 6:17 AM UTC

krzyk wrote: post #460

geff82 wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not forget that the German government resorts to "alternative facts" since the pandemic began just as they see fit. When we had nor masks available last march, they said "masks are useless" two months later they were mandatory "because they are the best thing we have". Recently, a post by the government on Facebook said "AstraZeneca gave us one of the best vaccines ever" just as people started to cancel their a…

> When we had nor masks available last march, they said "masks are useless" two months later they were mandatory "because they are the best thing we have" Wow, this is exactly how the masks thing played out in Poland. I wasn't aware that this "makes are useless" followed by "masks are mandatory" (with Poland together with a ban on selling them on the biggest platform, big like Amazon is in the US - Allegro). And now…

Pretty much the same thing happened here in New Zealand too, FWIW. I understand it was WHO providing this advice (i.e. no evidence regarding the effectiveness of masks etc) at the time so perhaps the German government is not entirely at fault. I know that once the WHO changed their tune (following research comparing countries who had policies on masks and those who didn't) the New Zealand government eventually got round to making masks mandatory but even then only in certain places.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#462

Post by angry_octet » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 6:24 AM UTC

neuronic wrote: post #238

hef19898 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, in deed we have. As does France.

Historically interesting: In the Soviet GDR there was a 95%+ vaccination rate and people trust Russian/Soviet vaccine science (I am from the region). Introducing Sputnik V to Germany may boost vaccine acceptance in the East. The majority of the vocal deniers is localized around Munich btw, same with homeopathy advocates. Not sure why that is but I suspect 1888's medicine book by Eduard Bilz, which was extremely popul…

Europe is paying the technical debt from years of unquestionably devouring mumbo jumbo cures like homeopathy, organic everything ('bio') and diminishing respect for science.

It's going to be interesting to see if western europe doubles down on the anti-vax beliefs or they swing round to be more like the Ossis.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#463

Post by Semaphor » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 6:24 AM UTC

2ion wrote: post #339

fab1an wrote: post #133

Looks like this may be a bit more relevant than many of the snarky comments would suggest - the relevant German authority on this said that they have seen a unexpected increase in a specific type of blood clotting issue that usually is very rare: https://www.pei.de/DE/newsroom/hp-meldungen/2021/210315-voru...

It's not a medically reasonable response that solicits snarky remarks, it's the complete retardation of the official covid response so far, and even reasonable decisions just are landing on a pile of steaming crap now. - billions per week of half assed lockdown vs a few billion more for high quality timeley vaccine delivieries of the good stuff --- of course they chose the lockdown - open schools as if nothing happen…

The masks don’t work lie was pretty much global.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#464

Post by krzyk » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 6:33 AM UTC

yladiz wrote: post #362

_ph_ wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vaccination rate in Germany will drop considerably while the hold is in place, at least 20%, if not more. I don't know the exact numbers, but vaccination is quite blocked on vaccine supply at the moment.

This isn't really true for the AstraZeneca vaccine, though. There's supply, but people don't seem to trust it and it's just sitting on the shelves because even when people book an appointment they don't show up. I'm sure the number of vaccinations _will_ drop, because it's one of the only few vaccines being distributed, but I doubt it will be as high as you mention here.

> This isn't really true for the AstraZeneca vaccine, though.

It is (or was), AZ was to supply EU with 500M vaccines this year but changed that to 200M.

EU got really served on the vaccine front, UK got more from AZ, US got more from Pfizer/Moderna (both have 3x more vaccinated than EU). And each transport that we ought to get is smaller or dalayed.

I wouldn't be surprised if governments there blocked some of the vaccine export.

I really hope that there will be a backslash for those companies for not fulfilling their obligations. If not now then later when there is a race for subsidies for "free" prescription medications.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#465

Post by angry_octet » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 6:34 AM UTC

ArkanExplorer wrote: post #357

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

THat works great if you don't die. That doesn't work so great if you don't die and have lifelong complications, though. It doesn't work so great if you get it and kill your child/grandmother either. It doesn't work so well if you have to catch the virus multiple times to have immunity either (folks aren't always immune after catching it). Not to mention the unknowns with mutations of the virus. It is seriously much b…

You can calculate the risk for yourself, based on data from the UK: https://qcovid.org/Calculation eg. 30 year old healthy white male: 1 in 7,092 risk of hospitalisation, 1 in 250,000 risk of death. By contrast the risk of death from anything for a 30 year old male in the UK is 1 in 1,215: http://www.bandolier.org.uk/booth/Risk/dyingage.html Even taking a healthy 80 year old male, the risk of death from COVID is 1 in…

I thought this bullshit was done with months ago?

- Death is not the only bad outcome. Many otherwise healthy younger people have experienced months of debilitating sickness, in addition to weeks of the worst flu you've ever had.

- You can pass it on to people less fortunate than yourself, who can't take weeks off work, and (in some countries) may not have health insurance, and might be at higher risk of death or morbidity.

- You're burdening a stretched health system, literally preventing other people (or even yourself) from getting life saving treatment.

- You're stopping me and everyone else from going to the pub.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#466

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 6:40 AM UTC

zzleeper wrote: post #425

nabeelms wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not aware what exactly the German government has said in the past w.r.t mask usage. However, governments claiming mask usage was not required near the start of the pandemic followed by them later requiring people to use masks was actually an understandable decision on their part from what I've understood of the situation as it unveiled. At the beginning of the pandemic, it was believed that the virus was using dr…

I was well aware even by March that masks were the way to go. It was a simple lie, by e.g. the Surgeon General, in order to try to save masks (while they didn't even start ramping production of them!) But of course if a government official lies to you about your own health risks then that has very high costs, much higher than whatever masks were saved. They could have just said "masks are useful, but you need to be t…

[deleted]

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#467

Post by shafyy » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 6:53 AM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #370

libertine wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point. This is an anomaly. It's not about the "oh it's worth the risk compared to COVID 19". If it's a side effect it wasn't spotted in the trials, why was that? It's not a side effect? It was a problem in production? What problem? Was is tampered with or was an accident? What failed in QA to let that batch come to the public? Was is a storage problem that compromised the batch quality? Was it whil…

> This is an anomaly. This is not established at all. Overall the number of blood clots observed is actually less than expected, with an incidence lower than in the general population (i.e. without vaccine at all). My source is BBC News this evening.

Ah, random guy on HN has more data than the official governmental health agencies.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#468

Post by oivey » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 6:53 AM UTC

ppf wrote: post #456

finolex1 wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why not temporarily suspend vaccinations only for those under 40? Or let people have a choice in determining whether the risk is worth it for them.

I would love to have a choice in determining whether the various risks are worth it for me, but my government has insisted on shutting all "non-essential" businesses, and only lifted a 3-month "stay at home" order last week.

That’s not really the same thing since an individual who, for example, goes to large gatherings also endangers others by making essential activities like going to the grocery store more dangerous for everyone. Besides that, wider spread of the virus increases the odds of dangerous mutations that make the vaccine less effective or the illness more severe. More spread also risks hospital overloads, which will hurt the medical outcomes of everyone. Going out beyond essential needs hurts everyone.

On the other hand, getting a potentially faulty vaccine would seem to mostly only be a risk to the individual, although I suppose there is some risk of overwhelming hospitals still.

Please just stay home for a few more months so this shit can finally fucking end. It’s already been a year.

Edit: an important factor, too, is that understanding the potential risks of the AZ vaccine is hard, and the average person may not expected to fully understand them. Right now, it seems like even the authorities don’t understand them.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#469

Post by Google234 » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 6:54 AM UTC

Koshkin wrote: post #385

hntrader wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's not a political decision" It likely is, though. From the perspective of the regulators, there are asymmetric personal consequences. If they make a decision that leads to 50 clotting deaths but saves 5000 people from COVID as a counterfactual, their head is on a chopping block because those 5000 foregone deaths are invisible but the 50 deaths are visible. If they make a decision to halt the vaccine distribution…

> we can't assume that it was for the right reasons But what are “the right reasons”? This one is a moral dilemma that has no solution. “OK, let’s kill these 50 people so that that those 5000 could live.” No one in their right mind can propose that.

That decisions is made all the time with drugs that have side effects. Setting the speed limits also is a balance between a deaths and convenience

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#470

Post by baumy » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 7:00 AM UTC

intellegacy wrote: post #432

nabeelms wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not aware what exactly the German government has said in the past w.r.t mask usage. However, governments claiming mask usage was not required near the start of the pandemic followed by them later requiring people to use masks was actually an understandable decision on their part from what I've understood of the situation as it unveiled. At the beginning of the pandemic, it was believed that the virus was using dr…

The lesson from 1918 for public health is that if you lie to or mislead the public once, even if by accident, you have reduced credibility in the future and are less likely to have the public listen to you. The authorities didn't learn this lesson and instead misled the public for 2 months, then did a 180 and expected people to blindly listen to them again. As a citizen, would you trust the government if they did yet…

> As a citizen, would you trust the government if they did yet another 180, after demonstrating to you 2x that they didn't actually know what they were talking about?

One of the many things that I've learned from this pandemic is that for better or worse, the answer to this question is emphatically yes for a significant percentage of the population. Many folks will indeed blindly trust whatever they are currently being told by people they believe are authorities or experts. At times this may be a good thing, but I personally lean toward thinking it's not good overall. And as you correctly point out, another big chunk of people will understandably lose faith in institutions and authorities that either were wrong or simply lied, which I'd argue likely causes significant long term damage to the healthy functioning of a society.