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Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#461

Post by zepto »

babesh wrote: post #435
zepto wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> stop branding their morality You can’t seriously think this would have any effect on Pakistan’s regime. > You go try asking them. Ok, so you don’t know what people in Pakistan want. How is it ethical for you to argue that they should not be allowed Google or Apple’s products?

I said they were hypocrites. Not that it would have an effect. It would end their hypocrisy.

Seems like you don’t care about religious freedom Pakistan at all.

This is just about you wanting to shame Apple.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#462

Post by jariel »

zepto wrote: post #275
jariel wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evidence of Apple's monopoly are actually baked right into that rate. They are price-setters, not subject to the whims of the market, and adjust their prices given non-market forces (press, threat of regulation etc.) It's a high enough number that it absolutely changes outcomes, meaning at minimum less choice for consumers and higher cost, and implicitly, a whole host of lost opportunity. In particular, there are ton…

> In particular, there are tons of Enterprise apps that can't feasibly operate on Apple due to issues concerning Apple wanting to take the entirety of their profit. False. Apple doesn’t take a percentage from enterprise distribution. Also, you didn’t provide a counterfactual, which is exactly my point. The 15% on its own is indicative of nothing.

???

Apple absolutely takes 30% of Enterprise services, depending on how they are paid for, and as they gain more power, they will absolutely lever that power into other sectors.

"Apple is demanding 30% commission from Airbnb and ClassPass. That's because the pair have shifted to selling virtual, online classes during the pandemic. It has threatened to remove Airbnb from the App Store if it doesn't comply." [1]

How risky is it now to create a startup, used by anyone in a situation of 'individual buyers' that involves any kind of service?

Apple is threatening to take 30% of most of the US services economy.

If it 'happens on an iPhone' - they want 30%.

For small companies, it's 15% - but the difference is irrelevant because they are 'price setters' in a monopoly setting, and those prices cause consumer harm.

You cannot currently upgrade Spotify or Netflix using an iPhone - that is a fairly radically obvious example of Apple stupidity/consumer harm.

And finally the 15%/30% charge are material because they drive that consumer harm - were there no such charge, you'd be able to a range of other services.

" you didn’t provide a counterfactual, which is exactly my point." - yes, I did. A 30/15% tax causes material harm. The 15% is evidence of price setting. You can download apps for 0% all over the Android universe.

[1] https://www.imore.com/apple-threatens-remove-airbnb-app-stor...

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#463

Post by zepto »

babesh wrote: post #436
zepto wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also don’t take a moral stand when it would do more harm than good. Someone has to be sensible, and not hurt people just to please vocal activists in another country.

That is oh so convenient and so wrong. It’s also known as the not my problem argument. Suppose you lived in England in 1861. Would you choose to do business with the Confederacy? Where is your magic calculator that shows you would do more harm than good by not doing business with them? In reality there isn’t one and you can’t make the calculation based on that. Instead, the magic calculator always swings to do busine…

Ok. So you think that it would actually do no good at all for these companies to leave, because they would be replaced.

It seems like you don’t actually care at all about religious freedom in Pakistan then.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#464

Post by zepto »

jariel wrote: post #462
zepto wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In particular, there are tons of Enterprise apps that can't feasibly operate on Apple due to issues concerning Apple wanting to take the entirety of their profit. False. Apple doesn’t take a percentage from enterprise distribution. Also, you didn’t provide a counterfactual, which is exactly my point. The 15% on its own is indicative of nothing.

??? Apple absolutely takes 30% of Enterprise services, depending on how they are paid for, and as they gain more power, they will absolutely lever that power into other sectors. "Apple is demanding 30% commission from Airbnb and ClassPass. That's because the pair have shifted to selling virtual, online classes during the pandemic. It has threatened to remove Airbnb from the App Store if it doesn't comply." [1] How ri…

> Apple absolutely takes 15/30% of Enterprise services, depending on how they are paid for.

This is complete bullshit. They charge 15/30% for delivery of digital content through their actual platform.

Paying for services is done through Apple Pay, which has fees in line with any other credit card processor.

Yes, it’s true that there are some fucked up cases where Apple is classing certain digital content in a way that seems to violate this. Yes, we should be pressuring them to be sane about that.

But let’s not spread bullshit like ‘Apple charges 30% for “Enterprise Services”’ in some general way. That’s just misleading, and false.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#465

Post by quetzthecoatl »

webmobdev wrote: post #455
quetzthecoatl wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India is not secular, and whatever goes on in India in the name of secularism is the exact opposite of it. Rights are sanctioned and denied based on religious identity. In case you want to know how bad it is, the ones the most oppressed and poor are the lower caste hindus, and even now, it's illegal for a lower caste hindu to open and run school exclusively for lower caste hindus even with his own money. It's not jus…

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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#466

Post by ethbr0 »

FlownScepter wrote: post #168
ethbr0 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're talking about two different things here: companies and code. You're absolutely right in that companies, as legal entities, have to obey laws in whatever jurisdiction they operate. But the "internet routes around censorship" folks are usually talking about company-less code (or information), in its pure sense. That is effectively influenced by only two variables: the cost of copying and distributing it.…

> But the "internet routes around censorship" folks are usually talking about company-less code (or information), in its pure sense. Is it company-less, though? Code is useless without the silicon that brings it to life, without the people that maintain that silicon, without the power grid that energizes it, and without the data links that connect it. Like I understand what you're saying, you're saying that the pure…

That's drawing a lot of absolutes from a lot of very qualified facts.

Given the current state of technology, and the diversity of vendors at every level, there is no way any country could impinge on an individual's ability to access general purpose computing.

For example, that the US has the power to ban optical disk drives that don't scan for and prohibit certain contents? Ha!

Among the ridiculous points this is not reality, in no particular order. (A) General purpose computing would have to be banned. (B) This hasn't even broached the topic of content encryption. (C) The level of control over imports would have to be completely overhauled to something approaching North Korea. (D) Domestic manufacturers would have to be banned from producing programmable processors.

This is literally not the world we live in. Even in China.

It's not a game of qualified answers. If (1) I have a general purpose computer & (2) I have code that can accomplish the intended activity on that general purpose computer, then (3) no one can stop me from executing that code.

The closest example is metadata tracking artifacts in printer documents [0], and previous efforts to technically prohibit currency counterfeiting on then-new color printers.

But that's fundamentally different than what we're talking about here: there are a limited number of manufacturers, in a low margin business, that's highly specialized.

[0] https://www.eff.org/issues/printers

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#467

Post by nethunters »

selimthegrim wrote: post #458
nethunters wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point was aimed at the classification of Ahamdis as not being Muslim and how the founder and main leaders of the Ahmadiyya even seen their movement as radically different to mainstream Islam. I haven't seen any statements of them opposing these views. Regardless, I wasn't advocating or defending their persecution.

You might want to check out the 1974 assembly hearings where the successor of the guy you cited has a bit about “political Muslims”

Are you talking about the below National Assembly where it couldn't be decided by him whether mainstream Muslims are Kaafir according to the widely published statements of the founder?

https://ahmadiyyafactcheckblog.com/2017/12/22/mirza-nasir-ah...

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#468

Post by selimthegrim »

nethunters wrote: post #467
selimthegrim wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to check out the 1974 assembly hearings where the successor of the guy you cited has a bit about “political Muslims”

Are you talking about the below National Assembly where it couldn't be decided by him whether mainstream Muslims are Kaafir according to the widely published statements of the founder? https://ahmadiyyafactcheckblog.com/2017/12/22/mirza-nasir-ah...

Yeah, I'm not defending his performance. I think he said something about 'political Kaafir'

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#469

Post by mabbo »

lrem wrote: post #377
mabbo wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not I've said this before, but if you only do the ethical thing when it doesn't cost you anything, you aren't actually an ethical person. You're just an opportunist. Companies that say they have to do the unethical thing because otherwise shareholders will get mad or fire them, well they're doing the same thing, but it's avoiding personal costs (ri…

Google did exit the Chinese market though and its stock price has since under-performed the competitors that did not.

And that is to be commended and respected

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#470

Post by Layke1123 »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #449
Layke1123 wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahh so now what about banning child pedophilia in holy books? How do you feel about religions texts the promote that particular viewpoint?

Like cults? Claiming religious authority to abuse someone is a crime basically everywhere. If you're trying to refer to Muhammad, calling a few lines about a political marriage not contained in the Qur'an "promoting that viewpoint" is assholish behavior. If there's some other target or just a hypothetical, it would depend on how the religion viewed the section today.

You are really about to start splitting hairs here I feel, but let's do this.

If a religion today promoted that a 50 year old can marry a 9 year old, would you ban it or not?

If a religion today claimed that the rapist of a woman who was single was forced to marry said woman, would you ban it or not?

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