M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness • Hacker News Board

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#461

Post by 6d65 » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 10:12 PM UTC

tannhaeuser wrote: post #432

6d65 wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not planning to get a macbook. My main contender would be an XPS with a new ryzen cpu on 5nm, if they'll have one next year, or a thinkpad again with Ryzen 5nm. I would not accept anything less. But thinking about it, it might be that the mobile AMD CPUs are a year behind the desktop ones. So next year the best ryzen could still be at 7nm Zen3. In that case apple will have a 2 year transistor lead. But, will see.

Is there any statement Dell will build Ryzen XPSs?

Only wishful thinking from my side. As mentioned in the post, I hope that the M1 performance and aggressive apple marketing will push premium pc laptop manufactures in adopting the best performance x86 CPUs. And I also hope that AMD will seize the opportunity to get a good chunk of mobile market.

Of course, next year laptop models are probably being finished right now, and it could be that intel still found a way to bribe premium manufactures from including AMD in their premium models.

In my opinion they'll lose marketshare if that happens. But, there are most likely smart people with a lot of more information than me making these decisions.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#462

Post by hsitz » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 10:16 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #247

zepto wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The numbers say otherwise.

When iPhone came out in 2007, Android was still an OS for BlackBerry like devices. It didn't take long for Android to discover touch screens once Apple made it clear that they were dramatically better. Similarly, it's not like other ARM chip manufacturers are going to have to go through all of the same R&D expense to figure out how to make chips that are comparably fast--they just need to copy what Apple did without…

> When iPhone came out in 2007, Android was still an OS for BlackBerry like devices.

When iPhone came out in 2007, Android did not even exist. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#463

Post by shaggyfrog » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 10:18 PM UTC

usefulcat wrote: post #455

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> " Microsoft, at least, has Windows running on ARM, but it doesn't have Rosetta " I thought that Microsoft's emulation efforts were hampered by Intel making threats, e.g. " Intel recently made an unprecedented public challenge to Microsoft and Qualcomm that basically told the latter two companies: if you ship an x86 instruction set architecture (ISA) emulator, we’re coming after you. ", from https://www.forbes.com/s…

Did Intel similarly threaten Apple? If not, why not? Even if they didn't know for sure exactly what Apple was up to with the M1, they surely could have speculated, as so many others did.

The threat was regarding emulation. Rosetta 2 isn't emulation, it's translation.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#464

Post by j-pb » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 10:19 PM UTC

andor wrote: post #426

j-pb wrote: post #311

My new M1 Macbook Air arrived today. The excitement was quickly replaced by sober frustration. Yes apple did a remarkable job with the M1, no they've still lost their mojo when it comes to high quality software. I've spend the last 3 hours trying the wipe and reinstall the thing, because their non-virgin-os migration assistant is simply unreliable. So far, I've had issues where the fused Data/OS drive would just spli…

I mean, how do you even manage to break curl... Depending on where you tried to write to, you might need to grant "Full Disk Access" permission to your Terminal app.

It was failing after ~20%. No permission issue.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#465

Post by valuearb » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 10:19 PM UTC

GekkePrutser wrote: post #350

ravi-delia wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The M1 as a computer is too locked down for me, and it seems like for you. But the M1 as a demonstration of the power of modern ARM chips is absolutely unmatched. I have seen a lot of people use the lockdown argument to justify a disregard of ARM overall without realizing that no, the open version of this technology will be incredible .

Oh I'm not against ARM at all. In fact I have many systems running it :) Raspberries but also a Pinebook. I'm also getting an M1 mini from work. I just don't like the almost-religious overhyping of everything Apple. They're doing a great job. They're not perfect. For example: Moorhead makes a good point IMO. Yes he's talking about software issues. But in the case of Apple, you can't separate those two. The OS doesn't…

> For example: Moorhead makes a good point IMO. Yes he's talking about software issues. But in the case of Apple, you can't separate those two. The OS doesn't work on other hardware and (in this case) the hardware doesn't work with other OSes. This works to their (huge) advantage in some cases, being able to optimise each component perfectly. But it can be a drawback too like it is here.

Moorhead didn't make that point.

Moorhead made the point that a small amount of software that's mostly rarely used on the Mac platform isn't working perfectly. And even the mass market software he's pointed at, like Adobes is already in beta test with native versions about to be released.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#466

Post by chipotle_coyote » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 10:19 PM UTC

heavyset_go wrote: post #437

ogre_codes wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a lousy use of the word "Open" in a discipline where Open has a fairly specific meaning. I mentioned that as well though. Using your goofy definition of Open, x86 is no more "Open" than ARM. Pinebook and Raspberry Pi both use no bullshit ARM setups. With ARM, how accessible the architecture is is 100% dependent on the implementation which vary greatly by manufacturer.

> x86 is no more "Open" than ARM. Pinebook and Raspberry Pi both use no bullshit ARM setups. They're ARM SoCs, meaning that you can't just download the Ubuntu ARM ISO[1] and run it on either device like you could with an x86 ISO and an x86 machine. To run Ubuntu or any Linux distribution, you need to use images that were specially crafted for either SoC. This is because ARM SoCs use custom bootloaders and don't have…

While Apple likely has no motivation currently to make a UEFI-based ARM computer, there's nothing that prevent anyone else from doing so. UEFI is not x86-specific.

(I also think it's a bit too early to say definitively that no ARM-based Apple computer will ever be able to boot into Linux. I don't think Apple has any motivation to make that easy, but that may not be the same as making it impossible.)

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#467

Post by UberMouse » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 10:21 PM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #452

Gruber notes midway: "Perversely, developers, who by nature of their profession best understand exactly what an architecture transition like this entails, might be among the few professions who can’t yet move their primary computing to an Apple Silicon device by nature of the software tools they depend upon. (Some developers can move now, and — because Xcode running on the M1 compiles code so much faster than any Int…

> Compilation is an embarrassingly parallel task: if you've got N cores, you can use N cores and get a linear speedup for every expansion in N you are offered.

Somebody should let the Javascript world know that. Both Webpack and TypeScript are single threaded by default and it's a pain in the ass to get them to use more threads. So my 12 core CPU mostly sits around twiddling it's thumbs while I compile code for work.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#468

Post by fgonzag » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 10:22 PM UTC

matwood wrote: post #446

_abox wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah John Gruber has really become a shill over the last few years. His article reads like an Apple keynote transcript, everything is magical and amazing, a marvel and mindbogglingly great. No wonder they throw him so many exclusives ;) Yes M1 is great. But it's a closed system (no booting Linux or Windows at this time) and even under macOS you're having even less access to the system's internals than before. Also, A…

> John Gruber has really become a shill over the last few years. I think it's important to read Gruber and understand he's an Apple person. Not a shill, as much as his world is all Apple. Sure, he checks out an Android phone every couple of years, but for the most part he doesn't care what's going on outside the Apple ecosystem. And, that's fine. As a reader of Gruber, I read for his takes about Apple.

Agreed, shill isn't the right word to use. Fan, cultist, or zealot would be more in line (depending on the desired impact and tone of the expression)

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#469

Post by joakleaf » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 10:22 PM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #452

Gruber notes midway: "Perversely, developers, who by nature of their profession best understand exactly what an architecture transition like this entails, might be among the few professions who can’t yet move their primary computing to an Apple Silicon device by nature of the software tools they depend upon. (Some developers can move now, and — because Xcode running on the M1 compiles code so much faster than any Int…

I disagree.

I compile a lot. Every day. Almost daily in Java, Objective C, and C++ (Yes, I work actively on all three languages these months).

90% of the time I compile one file (the one I just changed) and then I link. Linking is not parallel and it takes about 4-15 seconds (dep. on the project/lang.).

I use an i9 with 8 cores, but I suspect that a CPU with fewer cores, that go really fast for seconds before throttling would be quite good for most of what I do during the day. Including testing+debugging the executable.

Recompiling everything takes minutes. It happens maybe once per hour, and I often combine the recompile with a coffee-break. So since it happens rarely it doesn't matter if that takes 0.5-5 minutes (dep. on project).

I don't mind waiting for the recompile, but I hate changing a few lines, compiling, waiting for 20 seconds, and then testing. I find that hose medium length waits destroy flow and creativity during the day.

I would definitely prefer fast single-file compilation + linking + testing, over fast full project recompiles.

In summary, I think these M1 devices will actually be great for developers using compiled languages.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#470

Post by nvarsj » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 10:22 PM UTC

simias wrote: post #100

I've never owned a Mac and don't intend to own one but I'm very happy with this M1 move, mainly for the reasons highlighted in the introduction to the article: >M1 Macs embarrass all other PCs — all Intel-based Macs, including automobile-priced Mac Pros, and every single machine running Windows or Linux. Those machines are just standing around in their underwear now because the M1 stole all their pants. I think it's…

Such a silly argument. An M1 Mac embarrasses no one but prior Macbooks, as it only runs OS X. There is no useful comparison to Windows or Linux. It's as asinine as comparing a mobile phone performance to a desktop PC.