Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 • Hacker News Board

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#461

Post by hardwaresofton » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 5:52 AM UTC

UBI has never seemed like a good idea to me. If the current system is being exploited (corporations like walmart paying below a living wage to workers because they know foodstamps/gov't assistance will cover the rest) it just never made sense to me that the current class conflict gets solved by the losing side (workers) gets free money to pay to the winning side (capital holders). I also haven't heard any convincing arguments for the basic counterpoint that UBI won't lead to just an increase in prices across the board for everything and inflationary pressure (free market competition is a myth in a lot of current-day markets, regulators are asleep at the wheel).

You could argue that we already have forms of UBI in practice right now, but the UBI that gets referred to in tech circles with no significant tax structure changes just uses the government to guarantee more wealth accumulation for those already at the top. As the gulf between the workers and the capital class widens, it gets harder and harder for anyone to make the leap, and then we get the societies we see in Sci-Fi (ex. Elysium). It seems so absurd that people are pushing for UBI in a world where the US doesn't even have nationalized healthcare and a reasonable healthcare system. Talk about putting the cart before the horse.

I think the right-ish solution in the US can be oversimplified to:

- Reduce ludicrous defense spending in peace time - Increase corporate and top end taxes to what they have been historically - Resurrect unions - Fix job displacement with investment in education and job retraining programs with extra support linked to enrollment

Unfortunately, getting any of these things done requires an insane amount of political know-how, political will, coordination, and effort, and someone to lay out a plan and lead the effort, not even including all the problems with today's hyper-partisan political climate.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#462

Post by bryanrasmussen » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 5:53 AM UTC

Aerroon wrote: post #166

alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

I don't see how this would really work. A carbon tax in an ideal situation is just a consumption tax. This means that it's the consumer that pays it. Rich people don't eat more food nor do they drive dozens of cars at once. If we want this carbon tax to offset our greenhouse emissions then that means it will necessarily disproportionately impact poor people. And then you want to turn around and pay that money back to…

Every few years or so people pick on Al Gore because of the size of his carbon footprint, basically rich people use more resources and resources in our world get very much linked to energy usage - a good non Al Gore bashing look at it https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/the-truth-about...

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#463

Post by spyckie2 » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 5:54 AM UTC

john_moscow wrote: post #328

I like how the article pointed out the biggest economic problem I see in post-industrial society - instead of almost everyone being a small business owner, we have huge corporations reaping massive profits, and poor replaceable corporate drones barely making ends meet. That said, I completely disagree with the proposed solution of UBI and here's why. We humans have a rather nasty bug in our firmware: when we do not h…

UBI is not a replacement for work - we do have to work under UBI. It just lessens the imminent need of working, affording a lot of people the ability to take more breaks from working to relax and recharge.

I agree that a permanent state of non-work is bad for society, but UBI is not advocating for that at all.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#464

Post by lambdasquirrel » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 5:54 AM UTC

laingc wrote: post #419

alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

One of my best friends is an academic economist working in this space, so while I won’t pretend to be an expert, I have spent a goodly amount of time discussing this with one. With no disrespect intended to you personally, this policy you propose makes no sense. Without putting words in your mouth, it looks to me like “two things I as a progressive like the idea of”, rather than a coherent economic policy. Carbon tax…

If we're going to have an academic debate, then we should have an academic debate. One academic economist doesn't make a debate. I mean no disrespect to you either but I was friends with a Ph.D at Intel who said the economics were all in favor of general-purpose computing, and therefore, realtime raytracing was the way to go. Embarrassment was on me. I parroted his lines for quite a while. None of us are infallible. Having a Ph.D merely means you know how to do research, in a narrow, focused area.

If we are going to have an academic argument – and we really should, if we aren't to just be blabbering off here – we need to see some numbers. We need to know how they are calculated. What's the carbon footprint of these Mexican laborers getting to work 3 to a small-cab truck, or on bicycle, or on BART in the wee morning? And have that compared to the guy in Hamptons with his giant 22-room house here, and other houses elsewhere.

Maybe the Mexican guy's taxes will be close to mine. More than is comfortable. That is fine. Carbon taxes don't have to be the only source of income for the government. But until we can see the actual curves, and the total output per segment, etc., we can't actually crunch out what an effective policy is, and we're writing off what's arguably necessary if we're to fix the problem, because we're probably going to have a hard time cutting back emissions until we associate an economic cost to them.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#465

Post by Consultant32452 » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 5:55 AM UTC

UBI won't be real until there is a political will to relinquish control of poor people. The first step towards UBI is changing this culture of control. People don't even like school choice with vouchers, I doubt we're going to just give people large sums of money to be spent however they like with no strings attached. We spend about $15k/yr per public school student. Let's see how popular it is to cut a $15k check to each family per kid, you can spend that money however you like. It doesn't even have to be spent on education. Convert public housing to a check with no strings attached. No more food stamps or WIC cards either, just a check. Unfortunately we just don't live in that kind of culture.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#466

Post by austhrow743 » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 5:58 AM UTC

Intergenerational wealth transfer is the root of all evil. She absolutely shouldn't be able to do that.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#467

Post by Bootwizard » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 5:59 AM UTC

treyfitty wrote: post #272

There are a lot of people here dissenting on the idea of UBI on the premise that they find meaning in work, and to take the incentive to work away will lead others (themselves included) not to have meaning in life. I’ve taken a year off of work to start a business that failed and spent the past few months hanging out with my kids. At first, my stress levels were high because daycares were shut down and I was panickin…

I'm in a similar situation after being laid off from my job. I would have a much more enjoyable life if I didn't have to find a new job. I've improved as a person more over the past few months than I have in the past few years working full-time. Now I have the time (all of it really) to actually think about who I am and how I can improve my habits, diet, health, etc.

I feel like nearly everyone (especially in America) are too caught up in their careers to realize how unhappy and unhealthy they really are.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#468

Post by spyckie2 » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 5:59 AM UTC

bluedevil2k wrote: post #12

I can’t help but think that UBI would distort job markets. Let’s pick an example of a “sucky job” (and I say this as just an example, I realize these guys work hard and are vital). A garbage man. He get’s paid $42k a year because they have to find people who would be willing to do this sucky job and need to pay higher than minimum wage to do so. At some point of income, people would be willing to accept the suckiness…

This is a good thing, not a bad thing. I would say it corrects job markets, turns them from slavery due to lack of options, into fair competitive markets on both supply and demand sides.

It will not affect day to day life very much unless you've been underpaying for a vital service (in this case, you're the slave owner). Then all the slave owners will just have to pay more for services that they want.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#469

Post by malkuth23 » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 6:02 AM UTC

9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #421

gzu wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lack of real world experience on a HackerNews UBI discussion is infuriating. Western society's white collar elite are completely unaware of truly how many "sucky" jobs there are in the world that all enable our (currently) superior standard of living. Your entire existence relies on a globalist system of slave level labor producing products from all corners of the world. Automation of every industry is impossible…

In Europe and Australia, all those jobs get done and the people doing them get fairly compensated for it. For example, the pay for a garbage truck driver is actually quite high, because it's an unpleasant job and they need to attract people to do it. And because the salary is high, it's also heavily automated, with pickers that grab bins and empty them into the truck. Meanwhile, in Southeast Asia, the same job is don…

In Southeast Asia? Try New Orleans, Louisiana where sanitation workers have been striking to make $15 (they currently make $10.25 with no benefits) and jog along side the truck and empty the cans by hand.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#470

Post by Bootwizard » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 6:04 AM UTC

lkschubert8 wrote: post #326

jonstaab wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I see with that is that if a huge number of people take that route and happily (let's assume) live their lives without working, they lose access to the ability to participate in a meaningful way in the economy by producing something of value; if they're not producing value, no one is going to value them, and they'll eventually be locked out of the new, smaller elite group that controls the means of produc…

This gets at a problem I always wonder about with UBI (as someone who genuinely sees the value in a successful implementation of it). What happens in 20-30 years once the system has been entrenched. Will the children of those that choose not to work for additional income have decreased social capital an struggle to enter the workplace if they choose? How do you prevent those that choose to work from using the increas…

This is the actual dilemma with UBI that should be discussed. I feel though that not everyone who leaves the workforce will generate $0 in value. There are many people who would rather create their own small business, maybe selling a minor product, streaming video games, or any number of things. Over the past few months I've realized that there is so much opportunity to work for yourself online by providing some niche service that you really can sustain yourself. If you have enough time, patience, and money to find that niche and work at it that is.