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The Billionaire Behind Efforts to Kill the U.S. Postal Service [pdf]

inthepublicinterest.org

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Re: The Billionaire Behind Efforts to Kill the U.S. Postal Service [pdf]

#461
post #74

Something I don't normally see discussed re privatization of US Postal Service is that it doesn't appear to be a novel idea. Singapore's postal service, SingPost, is a publicly traded company[1]. The UK's postal service, Royal Mail, is a publicly traded limited company[2]. Germany's postal service, Deutsche Post AG, is a publicly traded company[3]. Japan's postal service, Japan Post, is a publicly traded company[4].…

Some data to consider while thinking about privatizing the post office, population densities: US - 87/sq mi Germany - 603/sq mi UK - 725/sq mi Japan - 862/sq mi Singapore - 20,446/sq mi

Is there some population density threshold where corporate governance stops working?

Does a pricing system and private enterprise break down in sparsely populated markets?

Clearly things seemed to work when going from 20,000/sq mi to 862/sq mi (2 orders of magnitude). Is the argument that there’s a magical breaking point somewhere between 603 to 87/sq mi?

Re: The Billionaire Behind Efforts to Kill the U.S. Postal Service [pdf]

#462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hasn't this been worked around, though? I can take a letter or other paper documents to FedEx, and they will ship it. It will be more expensive than USPS, though.

it is more expensive because it must be shipped as a parcel rather than a letter. They can't ship it as a letter because it's not legal to.

I guess I don't understand the logistical difference, then, because that sounds like a semantic difference to me. What stops FedEx from saying "we ship this parcel for the same price as USPS ships a letter"?

Re: The Billionaire Behind Efforts to Kill the U.S. Postal Service [pdf]

#463
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoa there! You’re asking a lot for Americans to know how anything works outside the US. It’s similar in Canada - a number of previously run public services were privatized (DMV equivalent, liquor stores, etc). And the level of service improved dramatically. I remember how awful the DMV was - crappy customer service, limited locations, terrible hours. Now I can go and register my car at 8pm on a Wednesday with a 5 mi…

In Sweden we have quite the opposite experience. Privatization of the postal service has led to much worse service, closure of postal offices, long delivery times in less densely populated areas (read non profitable), and Loss of mail; to make profit, the companies hire the lowest grade, temp-workers they can get their hands on. Sometimes these people figure it is easier to burn or throw away mail rather than to do t…

Same in Germany. DHL usually just puts the tag on your mailbox and says you "weren't home" and then you have to go pick up the package at the post office. They use a lot of low wage contract labor and put them on strict quotas.

Re: The Billionaire Behind Efforts to Kill the U.S. Postal Service [pdf]

#464
post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She stepped right up and took the opportunity to fly a confederate flag THREE times - all to curry favor from the Democrats. Even worse, especially in the light of current events, is that she attempted prosecution of the black activists that kept taking the flags down! https://lawandcrime.com/politics/feinstein-once-pushed-for-t...

The flag had been there for 14 years. The one witness account in the Snopes story says that the raising of the Confederate Stars and Bars was accidental, and occurred many weeks after Feinstein ordered the removal of the long-present Confederate battle flag upon a 3-day-long protest that ended with an official removal request which Feinstein immediately granted: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/dianne-feinstein-conf…

Hey, thanks for the link. Sincerely. Clearly, there is more to the story than I first assumed and understood.

I do think there is still some debate about the timelines involved, though. A 1984 article in the Harvard Crimson indicates that the Fort Sumter flag was raised prior to the California 100 flag: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1984/5/9/a-viable-alterna...

But the Snopes article indicates that Bradley brought down the California 100 flag in favor of the Fort Sumter flag.

I didn’t intend to “revise history” by my post. Hopefully no one takes it that way.

Re: The Billionaire Behind Efforts to Kill the U.S. Postal Service [pdf]

#465
post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some data to consider while thinking about privatizing the post office, population densities: US - 87/sq mi Germany - 603/sq mi UK - 725/sq mi Japan - 862/sq mi Singapore - 20,446/sq mi

Is there some population density threshold where corporate governance stops working? Does a pricing system and private enterprise break down in sparsely populated markets? Clearly things seemed to work when going from 20,000/sq mi to 862/sq mi (2 orders of magnitude). Is the argument that there’s a magical breaking point somewhere between 603 to 87/sq mi?

Yes? When it comes to delivering first-class mail for cheap, I assume there’s a minimum population density that allows for such a thing to be done cheaply (similar to now) and profitably. The US has nearly an order of magnitude lower population density than Germany, I’d bet there’s a threshold somewhere in that range where it wouldn’t be possible to deliver a mail anywhere in the US by a private company for similar rates that everyone currently enjoys now.

My whole argument is that the utility of keeping the USPS as it sits now with equitable pricing outweighs any potential efficiency or profit gained by private actors. If you disagree, that’s fine. I’ll disagree with your position that we should privatize the USPS, it will fuck over rural people to the benefit of ... who now? Are you heavily weighed down by purchasing .55 cent stamps? Because market rate first class mail would fuck over poor rural people pretty hard for almost no gain. The utility outweighs any efficiency or profit gains offered by private companies.

Not every damn thing needs to be privatized, some things are better left as government entities because the benefit to the public is greater than any profit motive. Letter delivery is one of those things.

Re: The Billionaire Behind Efforts to Kill the U.S. Postal Service [pdf]

#466
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. The problem with the USPS is that it's both been exposed to "market competition" and also has legal obligations that its competitors do not have. The cost of those legal obligations now far outstrips the value of their statutory monopolies.

Which legal obligations that it's competitors don't have? If you're talking about the requirement to pre-fund their pension fund, my understanding is that UPS and FedEx (and all private corporations) were already required to do so. I think it's more accurate to say that PAEA removed an artificial advantage that USPS had. OTOH, FedEx responded to MAP-21 and similar pension funding laws by getting rid of their pension…

USPS is required to serve every one every where. FedEx/UPS punt their shit to the USPS when it comes to rural america.

Re: The Billionaire Behind Efforts to Kill the U.S. Postal Service [pdf]

#467
post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flag had been there for 14 years. The one witness account in the Snopes story says that the raising of the Confederate Stars and Bars was accidental, and occurred many weeks after Feinstein ordered the removal of the long-present Confederate battle flag upon a 3-day-long protest that ended with an official removal request which Feinstein immediately granted: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/dianne-feinstein-conf…

Hey, thanks for the link. Sincerely. Clearly, there is more to the story than I first assumed and understood. I do think there is still some debate about the timelines involved, though. A 1984 article in the Harvard Crimson indicates that the Fort Sumter flag was raised prior to the California 100 flag: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1984/5/9/a-viable-alterna... But the Snopes article indicates that Bradley broug…

I didn't mean to imply that you were trying to revise history; I was referring to the article you cited, and in turn the Bayview article cited by that article.

For sure one wonders exactly what was going through Feinstein's mind during those 3 days. She's a deft, successful politician so I have little doubt there was some self-serving motivations at play. But her defiance and obtuse expression of authority in the face of a lawless action (however just) is textbook Feinstein. And it taking only 3 days for her to order its removal is fast even by today's standards, and even in San Francisco.

Re: The Billionaire Behind Efforts to Kill the U.S. Postal Service [pdf]

#468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the Federal Government has any mandate that allows it to start a for profit business, on some whimsical political wind. The USA is designed to allow people to make a living, and it has limitations that prevent it from getting in on someone's lucrative business. Laws supporting free+fair markets on the other hand, are meant to make it possible for private citizens to compete...

Nope. With respect, the US Government has myriad enterprises, under all kinds of legal authorities, accounted for in all kinds of ways. Two of hundreds of examples are Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

Hmm, I think the few [1] that we do have, have arisen in specific circumstances where there was a lack of private enterprise to address critical social need, or in support of failing private enterprise, to avert social crisis.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-owned_enterprises_of_the...

Re: The Billionaire Behind Efforts to Kill the U.S. Postal Service [pdf]

#469
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ellen Brown's work in writing about banking history, public banking, municipal banking, and banking reform is really worth looking into for people who are interested in the topic. Even libertarians and conservatives will I believe find something to agree with here as your city and state tax dollars probably go towards servicing private bank fees which could be eliminated by your city or state chartering their own ban…

Most libertarians (including myself) think it's a bad idea to have governments 'compete' with private companies for a variety of reasons, including: - It's unlikely that the government will regulate itself and its competitors fairly, and it's generally unlikely that the government will hold itself to account (as it often does for private entities). - The government is likely to set up barriers to entry, to prevent co…

But that's crude. There's an arbitrary taxonomy of "government" and "not government" and "not government" is under any condition whatsoever, looked at only as good faith actors while "government" regardless of any context, evidence, or institutional oversight is only seen as bad faith actors.

This isn't reality, it's just some artificial classification system placed upon society. It's a hypothetical thought experiment based on fictional categories. For example, The Irvine Group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irvine_Company) is a Private For Profit company that Governs the City of Irvine - the distinction between the two groups are totally imaginary and fictional. They only exist on a chalkboard.

I'm talking about people who call themselves libertarian who do not participate in this classification dance

There's a historical reality of actual real world public banks and there's been consistent and nearly universal support for their continuation across party lines. Theoretical thought experiments aren't needed - we can simply look at observed reality.

Maybe you should actually read Mrs. Brown's material as I suggested before forming an opinion on her work. I dunno, just a suggestion.

Re: The Billionaire Behind Efforts to Kill the U.S. Postal Service [pdf]

#470
post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there some population density threshold where corporate governance stops working? Does a pricing system and private enterprise break down in sparsely populated markets? Clearly things seemed to work when going from 20,000/sq mi to 862/sq mi (2 orders of magnitude). Is the argument that there’s a magical breaking point somewhere between 603 to 87/sq mi?

Yes? When it comes to delivering first-class mail for cheap, I assume there’s a minimum population density that allows for such a thing to be done cheaply (similar to now) and profitably. The US has nearly an order of magnitude lower population density than Germany, I’d bet there’s a threshold somewhere in that range where it wouldn’t be possible to deliver a mail anywhere in the US by a private company for similar r…

> When it comes to delivering first-class mail for cheap, I assume there’s a minimum population density that allows for such a thing to be done cheaply (similar to now) and profitably.

This is a bold assumption that needs backing, because it would suggest that Germans or Britons would be paying 2 orders of magnitude more on sending paper mail than Singaporeans. It also presupposes that private corporations must absolutely turn a profit on every piece of mail that they deliver to every destination, but that’s not how most enterprises work — there can be sustainable loss leaders. It also presupposes that we ought to subsidize rural paper mail delivery rather than charge the true price, which is also debatable.

> I’d bet there’s a threshold somewhere in that range where it wouldn’t be possible to deliver a mail anywhere in the US by a private company for similar rates that everyone currently enjoys now.

“I’d bet there’s a threshold”, how do you know that the US isn’t above that threshold?

> equitable pricing

This is also debatable, because the USPS is essentially charging higher rates in denser markets to offset the subsidized rates in sparser markets, which imposes a regressive price increase on poor urban USPS customers. Higher prices mean nothing to rich people. If there’s some social utility to having rural (and not urban) Americans enjoy subsidized first class mail, then why not just subsidize it directly through taxes as opposed to selective price increases, which can be regressive and un-equitable?

> Not every damn thing needs to be privatized, some things are better left as government entities because the benefit to the public is greater than any profit motive. Letter delivery is one of those things.

Is food one of those things? How about clothing and shelter? The profit motive is just an incentive for private entities to provide goods & services. The strongest argument in favor of the profit motive is that resource allocation is superior among private entities relative to government central planning. There are obviously exceptions, like externalities, but those don’t really apply here.

And even if we did decide that there’s a public benefit to providing subsidized mail to rural areas, that’s an excellent argument in favor of keeping a taxpayer subsidized USPS, but not a sufficient one in favor of maintaining its monopoly on paper mail. Especially considering that private corporations already deliver packages to low density rural areas alongside USPS just fine.

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