California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste • Hacker News Board

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#461

Post by entha_saava » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 2:52 PM UTC

anandrm wrote: post #395

entha_saava wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you look at the data of professors here in US and the first generation of guys in US doing higher studies you know. So you have a community base here . Its the same with IITs and reputed educations institutions . This is not the generalization I oppose. I agree with this. (Although as far as IITs are concerned it is mostly well-off Bania's rather than Brahmins, but still privilege at play). What I don't like is…

I m not generalizing all are well off . I do know of BPL families from this community , but thats 1% , the rest 99% are others. I want to emphasize the majoritarianism . While i was graduating in engineering ,I was the first engineer in my Family tree. I wanted to purse my MS in US, but struggling to find information and support , while my other friend from the same middle class upper caste community had all informat…

Obviously there is partiality in favour of their own castes among Brahmins, Banias etc.. then there is favouring Indians over other people. Mostly among management types - that's how they are taught to think. The same mindset that thinks management is superior to doing work yourselves is likely to favour people on such basis instead of qualification.

> https://mirror.uncyc.org/wiki/Indian_Programmers

> The Russian programmers have found the concept of "indocritical mass" - this is the limit of Indian programmers that can work safely in one company. If this mass is exceeded the count of the Indian programmers starts increasing in a geometrical progression until every position in the company is occupied by Indians. Indian programmers are coming!

> It is not clear how the Indian programmers breed but judging by the speed at which they breed there is high probability that they breed by division like an unicellular organisms.

I agree there is lot of such bias. But what I don't like is stereotyping all Brahmins like that. Maybe that's a counter bias from your standpoint; nothing is black and white.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#462

Post by bluGill » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 2:56 PM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #326

randomguy2379 wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who was born a lower caste hindu, I don't really mind the british caste system at all. Because the british caste system is fluid. If you are born to servant parents and study hard to become a doctor, you end up at the top of the caste system. Not in Hinduism. Even if you become a doctor, but were born a dalit(lowest caste), you will remain a dalit and so will your future generations. There is no escape fro…

Becoming a doctor does not make you upper class in the UK. You can't really become upper class, at least in the traditional sense - certainly not through a job or money. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class_in_the_United_Kin... e.g. David Cameron, Eton educated prime-minister, described himself as middle class. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25744526 Edit: You could argue that everyone is middle class thes…

The lords system in England buys someone in your family a seat in the house of lords. It might mean you were born born with land that theoretically you have government rights over, but if you take that farther than changing competitive rents you will discover the powers haven't been removed only because it wasn't worth the bother since nobody used them.

That is my impression as an outsider anyway. I'm sure the details are different somehow.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#463

Post by wobbly_bush » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 2:58 PM UTC

rutherblood wrote: post #178

I've heard this argument alot. To people saying caste isn't that big of an issue in contemporary india, esp in the urban areas: let's ask an Indian parent if they'd be comfortable having their child marry someone they think is of a "lower caste" than theirs. THIS is the best litmus test, quick, cheap and easy way to clear all doubts on the contemporary caste question. The things is inter-caste marriage is the best wa…

> let's ask an Indian parent if they'd be comfortable having their child marry someone they think is of a "lower caste" than theirs. THIS is the best litmus test, quick, cheap and easy way to clear all doubts on the contemporary caste question.

This test will fail because it doesn't account for what truly is caste in people's minds. Even among those who do not want to discriminate, different castes represent different daily cultures, traditions and even languages. So the question becomes on if they are comfortable with someone from a different culture - and that answer is almost always no.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#464

Post by naveen99 » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 3:01 PM UTC

naveen99 wrote: post #430

rutherblood wrote: post #178

I've heard this argument alot. To people saying caste isn't that big of an issue in contemporary india, esp in the urban areas: let's ask an Indian parent if they'd be comfortable having their child marry someone they think is of a "lower caste" than theirs. THIS is the best litmus test, quick, cheap and easy way to clear all doubts on the contemporary caste question. The things is inter-caste marriage is the best wa…

Inter caste marriage doesn’t eliminate caste anymore than interracial marriage eliminates race. Also, there are no protected categories for discrimination when it comes to mating or marriage. Edit: splitting this comment into a reply. Please downvote or upvote individually...

Originally part of parent, split for separable voting.

I feel like the quest for universal equality is like the quest for a universal compression algorithm, futile. everyone is unique, so you can’t equalize people.

The most productive and happy path forward is to think about the individuals (yourself and your counterparty).

It’s not your group against the world. It’s you against the world. And it’s not your group at your disposal, it’s the world at your disposal.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#465

Post by foobar_ » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 3:03 PM UTC

wonderwonder wrote: post #442

"At Cisco, the unnamed employee reported Iyer to human resources in November 2016 for outing him as a Dalit to colleagues. Iyer allegedly retaliated, but Cisco determined caste discrimination was not illegal and issues continued through 2018, the lawsuit states." If this is accurate, that's pretty messed up. If a private company, especially one of Cisco's stature knew of any form of harassment and then decided that t…

From what a friend has said to me, the situation is fairly similar to the discrimination people of colour face (slavery, jim crow, segregation, economic mobility, interracial marriage, lynchings, human right violations) and what native americans face (land rights, economic mobility, cultural assimilation and destruction) ... except this is in the asian context with added peculiarities. The distinction between the classes is made by the last name and skin colour like how you would discriminate between italian, spanish, irish, german, danish ... on the basis of their name as people look similiar despite all of them being clubbed under "white" and "christian".

On paper discrimination shouldn't happen but IRL it does everywhere.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#466

Post by mako254 » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 3:03 PM UTC

entha_saava wrote: post #328

randomguy2379 wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For over 2 millenia dalits were not even allowed to enter schools or gain education. Ambedkar was famously the only dalit student in his school. If dalits and other lower castes were not allowed to enter schools for more than a thousand years , then doesn't that mean that brahmins and other upper castes had 100% reservation in education for more than a thousand years? Why complain about reservation now when it was yo…

> For over 2 millenia dalits were not even allowed to enter schools or gain education. I agree. But reservation as it is in practice currently is rather a knee jerk reaction and not a scientific system. The problem with all these SJW "empowerment" plans is they empower the people who are already empowered. A retired judge told that the only way to ensure reservation won't be misused is restricting it to one member in…

This is the biggest fallacy peddled by upper castes against reservation/quotas and to deny that caste discrimination in India. Reservations in India are not meant to equalize income or opportunities among the castes. They are meant to keep the government machinery unbiased against the 'lower' castes through representation - so that their services are not biased against lower caste citizens. It has nothing to do with the economic status of the reserved castes. Why is it needed? Precisely because of the type of incidents explained in the news article. It's extremely common for dalit officers to be harassed and denied opportunity by upper caste groups playing politics. Same goes for recruitment. This is far more common than the incidents where a reserved category person is promoted without merit. Just imagine how prevalent that is in India if they are willing to take such toxic practices to a corporation in US. That my friend, is the harsh reality. I didn't want that whitewashing narrative to go unchallenged here.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#467

Post by JoeAltmaier » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 3:04 PM UTC

wobbly_bush wrote: post #463

rutherblood wrote: post #178

I've heard this argument alot. To people saying caste isn't that big of an issue in contemporary india, esp in the urban areas: let's ask an Indian parent if they'd be comfortable having their child marry someone they think is of a "lower caste" than theirs. THIS is the best litmus test, quick, cheap and easy way to clear all doubts on the contemporary caste question. The things is inter-caste marriage is the best wa…

> let's ask an Indian parent if they'd be comfortable having their child marry someone they think is of a "lower caste" than theirs. THIS is the best litmus test, quick, cheap and easy way to clear all doubts on the contemporary caste question. This test will fail because it doesn't account for what truly is caste in people's minds. Even among those who do not want to discriminate, different castes represent differen…

Is that just an Indian thing? Because in my family, here in Rural Iowa, the in-laws include a woman from New Delhi, Valencia Spain, Baguio Philippines, 2nd generation Elba Italy, Korea. That doesn't count the New Englanders and Appalachians (which is a whole different thing than Iowan).

I mention it because, a spouse of a different culture can be a wonderful thing. Language, food, daily culture are a constant source of enjoyment and growth.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#468

Post by shripadk » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 3:04 PM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #446

walt0 wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No other country has such laws. It's against even the basic magna carta principles. I know about "victims" who lie about the accusitions in these cases, the local community knows that its a lie but people are still guilty until proven innocent. I disagree with this, even though I faced such discrimination. P.S That does not mean discrimination does not take place or that there are no genuine complaints.

There are in fact preumption-of-validity (" prima facie " evidentiary) laws outside of India. In the case I'm considering these don't directly apply to civil or criminal law, though they operate closely adjacent to these.

We have "prima facie evidentiary" laws in India too. The law the parent is talking about has nothing to do with it. FIR is registered irrespective of whether there is a case made out prima facie or not. That is the biggest problem with this law. It turns the notion of "innocent until proven guilty" over its head.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#469

Post by wobbly_bush » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 3:06 PM UTC

thewhitetulip wrote: post #145

randomguy2379 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am someone who was born a hindu dalit and I am so ashamed of sharing that identity of mine that I am posting anonymously. Hindus believe that humans are like dogs and they have a breed. So a person who is born in a higher caste is of a better breed than a person born in a lower caste. Numerous genetic studies have found no significant difference amongst Indian castes. The moment an upper caste person realizes that…

I am sorry that you had to face it. > how hindu society openly supports and promotes it My 'high class' friends always bring up their caste even when it is not related at all. 'in Bramhins we don't do x'm 'In us Rajputs, we don't do x' They can easily say, 'I am a veg or I dont' drink or my family is xyz'. But no. their caste _has_ to come up. A friend of mine had asked one of her friends who used to do this: 'okay,…

Replace Bramhins with any other identifier (GenX, Californians, British) and you will understand why it happened. It's not about flaunting the caste, but a term to identify the group from other groups. From your own example it shows the groups had different people who approached things differently. Not every mention of caste is about caste discrimination.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#470

Post by TeaDrunk » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 3:06 PM UTC

Lio wrote: post #436

blueblisters wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sorry for your experience. Do you mind sharing what part of India you're from? It is really surprising to me that relatively better off Dalits would still find the need to convert to a different religion to avoid discrimination. Even more surprising that this is happening at a wider scale. I respect your personal choice, of course, but curious why people choose to convert to a different religion instead of just…

What Christian beliefs do you think are problematic? I'm an atheist myself but I don't see many things in Christianity that are particularly bad (...I just don't believe in the supernatural).

At least in America, evangelicalism and its voting bloc has been soundly contributing to the polarization of the country. Additionally, evangelicalism and its voting bloc are extremely politically active on matters such as abortion. (Catholicism has also been increasingly buying up hospitals and then denying women birth control and other reproductive-oriented resolutions like uterus and ovary removal to resolve healthcare conditions.)