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Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

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Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#461

Post by leetcrew »

gwd wrote: post #328
dtwest wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden has 342 COVID deaths per million. The US has 254 deaths per million. Germany is doing better, but the rest of Western Europe has much higher rates of death than the US. There seems to be a myth going around that Europe is handling this better than the US and the statistics don't really support that claim. If you have to bash Golden Corral to make your claim, you're probably a bit biased against Americans. That…

But New York has over 1400 COVID deaths per million [1]. New Jersey, Connecticut, and Massachussets are all more than double of Sweden's deaths per million, and still climbing steadily. The US only looks good next to Sweden because there are big areas of the country that are way more spread out. [1] https://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visualization/?chart=states...

fair point, but doesn't this imply that the spread out areas don't need such severe lockdowns?

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#462

Post by Broken_Hippo »

blaser-waffle wrote: post #448
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, no, you don't have to send your child to a public school. There are private schools to choose from. A proper education is a right in Sweden, and unfortunately, so many parents do a poor job at homeschooling that it isn't feasible and puts the person at a lifelong disadvantage. It is a shame that we (Americans) stand for this - the right for a parent to under-educate or mis-educate their children. If one allows…

I grew up in Virginia, and any of the home schooled kids were hyper religious and profoundly ignorant. I bumped into a few of them at a community college after I got out of the military. The USMC indoc'd me hard with the groupthink, and that took a while to get past, but I could at least do high school Trig and had basic history. I remember one girl who didn't believe the Holy Roman Empire existed and despite her ext…

I knew one family that homeschooled to different degrees: The oldest was until 8/9th grade, though the younger ones went to public school sooner. They weren't bad off, though obviously conservative and pretty much any friends were also homeschooled or were through church or boy scouts. The oldest really had issues adjusting to the other students.

But I know folks like the ones you met exist as well, and it irritates me to no end that we, as a society, allow this to happen. It is easy to see that such a thing might have lifelong consequences.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#463

Post by JPKab »

mehrdadn wrote: post #391
Press2forEN wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This goes back to the culture point OP made. Many people in the US want to earn a living, not be provided a living.

I don't believe this. In fact I can't even make sense of it. You're saying when families' and people's lives are at stake in the US, they'd legitimately rather risk dying than just getting handed checks that their own leaders approved of practically unanimously during a crisis? Isn't this completely at odds with the sheer demand there has been for the economic aid so far? And also at odds with how politicians have be…

Risk dying.

Is the quantity of risk identical to all populations?

The answer is no. But people like you never mention this.

I'm curious:

What is, in your opinion, the trigger for reopening? What metric? Is that metric at a city, county, or state level?

I'd like to hear specifics, because I have yet to hear them from the cowardly ass covering politicians who say there is no cost that can be put on a human life. The same people who choose not to put a guardrail on a dangerous rural road because the cost isn't worth the number of lives lost per year on said road.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#464

Post by beerandt »

quickthrowman wrote: post #365
ericmay wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure about that. I'm ready to go to the gym, go out to restaurants, and just yesterday they took the caution tape off of the school playground and lots of kids were there. I don't think demand will immediately return to 100%, but I think quite a few people are itching to get out and spend money and enjoy life. Maybe not in some areas, but most of the country is probably ready to go.

40% of households making under 40k a year have had a job loss since March

Is this an argument for lack of consumer demand?

Keeping things shut down isn't going to help these people get back to work.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#465

Post by cryptonector »

mullingitover wrote: post #212
cryptonector wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, no. That would be a dictator. In American constitutional law the Executive has rather limited powers.

> the Executive has rather limited powers The US president has the power to unilaterally order a nuclear strike on any point on the planet at any time they choose, regardless of how anyone in the other branches feel about it at the time. So 'limited,' maybe, but also able to end life on Earth as we know it on a whim. That's an aside, however. I'm talking about the general concept of an executive office, not specifica…

> The US president has the power to unilaterally order a nuclear strike on any point on the planet at any time they choose, ...

Not likely. The U.S. armed forces would not carry out such an order.

The President has a lot of military and foreign policy power, but not a lot of domestic policy power. This thread is about domestic policy.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#466

Post by cryptonector »

hanging wrote: post #216
bosswipe wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wisconsin Statue 252.02 does exist.

The Court didn't support it. Check out the summary [0] elsewhere in these comments (not mine, but I found it helpful). [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23173858

Did you read the decision? Here are some quotes:

> Palm responded that Emergency Order 28 is not a rule. Rather, it is an Order, fully authorized by the powers the Legislature assigned to DHS under Wis. Stat. §252.02.

So the Executive asserted that Emergency Order 28 is not a rule.

> We conclude that Emergency Order 28 is a rule under the controlling precedent of this court, Citizens for Sensible Zoning, Inc. v. DNR, 90 Wis.2d 804, 280 N.W.2d 702 (1979), and therefore is subject to statutory emergency rulemaking procedures established by theLegislature. Emergency Order 28 is a general order of general application within the meaning of Wis. Stat. §227.01(13), which defines "Rule."Accordingly, the rulemaking procedures of Wis. Stat. §227.24 were required to be followed during the promulgation of Order 28.

I.e., 252.02 is not the whole story.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#467

Post by altoidaltoid »

aisengard wrote: post #445
apostacy wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of the shelter in place order is doing more harm than good. When the dust settles, I am convinced that more people will have died as a result. I'm on pretty solid ground here. The costs of poverty and economic collapse are arguably better researched than pandemics. And it is hard not to be disgusted by the attitude of many people on HN, who are least affected by this. Having some relatives in that part of th…

The shelter in place order mostly hits around the margins. Most people are staying home on their own volition - government orders notwithstanding. I started staying home a few weeks before the official lockdown went into effect. The economy was going to collapse no matter what - that's not because of government giving an order to stay home, it's because the reality is that the virus infects everyone and leads to horr…

Agreed, I already cancelled my business travel two weeks before our state issued its first guidance on WFH. OpenTable's data showed the significant drop in reservations weeks before official orders as well.

Open the stores and nobody comes?

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#468

Post by altoidaltoid »

ericmay wrote: post #367
ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the wording is a bit harsh - not everywhere is a cesspool, a lot of places have bounced back, but the rust belt is particularly bad in area of opioid abuse - that is fact and very accurate. https://www.drugabuse.gov/drugs-abuse/opioids/opioid-summari...

I can find a bunch of articles summarizing the West Coast as a cesspool of heroin, homelessness, and opioid use as well. https://www.city-journal.org/opiods-homelessness-west-coast https://calmatters.org/explainers/californias-homelessness-c... https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2019-12-26/... Maybe California is a cesspool too? https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/as-opioid-ep... Or maybe Se…

Yeah, but people still want to live there vs. Youngstown or Cleveland

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#469

Post by Noos »

mehrdadn wrote: post #346
rubidium wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people I’ve talked to pushing for government to reopen things have lost jobs and businesses... or are about to. Their basic survival needs are being threatened. Show a little more compassion. I recommend talking to some people instead of parroting the pictures you see in the news.

So at the risk of asking a dumb question: why aren't protesters demanding e.g. more economic aid instead of a reopening? It's not like giving money to people in this crisis is a taboo anymore... it was one thing both the Congress and the White House agreed on for once. And it's not like if everything reopens then they're going to be instantly back in business. A lot of people will still stay home anyway. Wouldn't it…

because economic aid on this scale is unsustainable anyways, if the current shutdown continues. The government can't just keep on printing money.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#470

Post by mehrdadn »

JPKab wrote: post #463
mehrdadn wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe this. In fact I can't even make sense of it. You're saying when families' and people's lives are at stake in the US, they'd legitimately rather risk dying than just getting handed checks that their own leaders approved of practically unanimously during a crisis? Isn't this completely at odds with the sheer demand there has been for the economic aid so far? And also at odds with how politicians have be…

Risk dying. Is the quantity of risk identical to all populations? The answer is no. But people like you never mention this. I'm curious: What is, in your opinion, the trigger for reopening? What metric? Is that metric at a city, county, or state level? I'd like to hear specifics, because I have yet to hear them from the cowardly ass covering politicians who say there is no cost that can be put on a human life. The sa…

> But people like you never mention this.

Well ask me something about it and I'll answer it (or tell you if I don't know). There are a million things I haven't mentioned. Just like you. We're not writing dissertations on COVID-19 here. I can only address so many things that I find relevant to the discussion.

What are you even expecting me to say about this? Of course the elderly and the vulnerable are worse off. How is that against anything I was saying? I was suggesting we make more economic impact payments rather than pack together into a crowd and protest. Does it look like there was some obvious connection between that and people's age that I somehow deliberately omitted and that would've hurt my argument? If so please enlighten me and I'll address it.

Meanwhile the one thing I don't hear from "people like you" (since you like painting people with one broad stroke like that) is a single acknowledgment that the experts might know more than you (and me), and this isn't about your opinion vs. mine. Which is funny, though not in a humorous way. To you nobody knows what they're doing. To us, there are people who know what they're doing somewhat better than us laypeople, so we're trying to at least give them and their opinions that much credit and weight.

> What is, in your opinion, the trigger for reopening? What metric? Is that metric at a city, county, or state level? I'd like to hear specifics, because I have yet to hear them from the cowardly ass covering politicians who say there is no cost that can be put on a human life

Well that might be because you haven't been listening to them. I know Cuomo has answered your question quite precisely... same guy whom you're mocking for saying every life is priceless. He said (and this is not his opinion or mine, this is the opinion of the experts advising him) that when the infection rates become constant (i.e. when the derivative reaches 0), you can start to reopen. That is the trigger. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyOnfK_UMV4&t=4m38s

Also, FYI, experts have put costs on human life and they have come to the conclusion (sorry if this isn't what you're hoping to hear) that it's very much worth it to shut down the economy. If you're interested, listen here. I imagine you'll disagree anyway (the experts are blind etc.) but at least you can't accuse them of not having tried to do the analyses that you appear to believe you have done. https://www.npr.org/transcripts/835571843

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