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Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

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Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#461
post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Nikkei is still ~50% below its 1989 high. Hasn't even approached that level since. Downturns can go on for decades.

I didn't think this could still be true but apparently you are correct [1]. Wow. That being said, there are factors to contribute to this: - Essentially zero population growth [2] - A government and a system that propped up an insolvent banking system that likely extended the downturn significantly [3] - A massive asset bubble that we really haven't seen the likes of, not even in the subprime era. [1]: https://www.ma…

> - A government and a system that propped up an insolvent banking system that likely extended the downturn significantly

Very true. "Extend and pretend" was the rule of thumb on debt. By failing to let firms go bankrupt, you ended up with tremendous capital (and labor) resources in enterprises which do not create value.

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#462
post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To those who believe that all markets are rational and efficient, that interventions cause more harm than good, y, an enforced halt seems to be anti-capitalist. But we are not rational actors. We can get into panics. Panics can stir more panic. Forced breaks allow for the market to reassess data for a few minutes without fear of loss for not acting immediately.

You would think, by the same arguments, that the stock market could always just trade at 15-minute intervals. Why not? But people go crazy when researchers (e.g. Eric Budish at U. Chicago) suggest lowering the frequency to milliseconds, let alone seconds or minutes.

[deleted]

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT: This is wrong. There's no reason to ignore dividends. If you look at total return then it's above the high.

According to https://dqydj.com/nikkei-return-calculator-dividend-reinvest... Nikkei is down 36% since January 1990 if you reinvest dividends. Do you have a source for your claim?

You're right. I read a chart wrong.

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#464
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"They" don't do anything - this is called a circuit breaker, and is automatically triggered. There are three breakers: L1 - 7% down before 3:25pm - 15 minute halt L2 - 13% down before 3:25pm - 15 minute halt L3 - 20% down - halted for the remainder of the day Only a single L1 and a single L2 breaker can occur in a single day, e.g. the market falling below 7%, rising, then falling again will not trigger a second L1 br…

Okay thats fine, but who implements/decides these circuit breakers ? And what purpose to they serve only to limit a mass sell off ? Nice point about only 2 daily. But still seems crazy.

The exchange does. Exchanges are companies too.

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#465
post #315

So, children of summer (there are many here who have only known the longest bull market in the last century), let me give you some free advice. If you're looking at this and wondering when to get in, to bargain hunt essentially, and you're asking yourself questions like "today? next week?", you need to step back and think again. Some points to consider: - If your time horizon is 10+ years out probably none of this ma…

When China put 10% of the worlds population on travel restrictions, a put on SPY with a strike of 300 expiring this Friday was 29 cents.

The optimism is frankly unbelievable.

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#466
post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the end game with this strategy? If you sell the puts today to capture the profits, do you also sell your equities? If you don't sell your equities isn't there a chance the slide further? If you hold the puts to maturity why buy them at all?

The end game is to save the value of my account without having to sell holdings I want to keep long term for tax reasons. I'm up 8% for the year instead of down 15%.

Maybe you really are more clever than the rest've us, and have beat the market. Or maybe you got lucky. Or maybe we're only hearing about the winning trades, and you've got some losers we're not hearing about... I suspect it's option 2 or 3. Regardless, this is bad advice.

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2% (maybe more actually) is the mortality rate of those infected. But so far infection rate was 0.001% ; it would need to be 3 full orders of magnitude worse to even approach an infection rate of 2%....

How long did it take Italy to go up three orders of magnitude in infection rate?

A bit less than 10x, an order of magnitude, every week.

It's been really is very easy to see the future up until now. There's 9000 cases in Italy now; by the 16th of March, factoring in the containment measures, they could be 60-80k.

About 10% need intensive care; there's probably 3000 IC beds available now. Very simple.

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#468
post #315

So, children of summer (there are many here who have only known the longest bull market in the last century), let me give you some free advice. If you're looking at this and wondering when to get in, to bargain hunt essentially, and you're asking yourself questions like "today? next week?", you need to step back and think again. Some points to consider: - If your time horizon is 10+ years out probably none of this ma…

It's unfortunate to ignore the sentimental nature of markets. In the history of market there has always been either a discount or a premium over fair value. As if by coincidence, I'm reading the intelligent investor and a lot of what Graham said remains true to this date. There's almost always a premium/discount to the fair value of the stock market as a whole. The last few years have been extraordinarily good. Everyone knew a correction was coming. That's happening now. It's impossible to time the market but it's possible to differentiate between a correction to a fair value and a huge discount on price. In any case, the investor should be willing to wait for a while before the market realizes the value that they think the stock is worth.

Similar to how the last few years felt like everything was getting more and more expensive, the current downturn also seems like an over-correction (time will tell if I'm wrong). But what I'm sure is this - if the markets are down for a prolonged period - over 5 years - we have way bigger problems than the rate of return.

Here are the tips that I stick to: - DO NOT try to time the market. Exception: when you strongly feel the market went into an over-correction or you feel the market is highly over-valued. (Graham uses a range between 25% - 75% for stocks vs bonds.) - DO NOT invest money that you need in the short term in the market. Corollary: keep a buffer in cash/high-interest savings account + Treasury bonds for short term needs. - DO NOT PANIC - it's really hard to resist the urge to buy when the markets are going up (FOMO) and the urge to sell when it's crashing. Of all the strategies, this one (buy high, sell low) is guaranteed to return a loss. - For most passive investors, index funds + dollar cost averaging is the best way to go. These days robot managers do a good job of also expanding this into stocks + bonds + international coverage covering more scenarios - for example, a hedge against the US market or one's home market not doing well (enough) in the long run. - Hold individual stocks only if you think you'll hold it even if there's no ticker for it with up-to-date price info.

I split my portfolio into 1) Cash/short term funds 2) Long term retirement fund and 3) Speculative investment. All the money on (3) is money I'm willing to lose (not that I want to lose). That's the only account where I buy riskier bets which are pretty much most individual shares. I keep completely separate accounts to make this assumption explicit and clear.

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#469
post #315

So, children of summer (there are many here who have only known the longest bull market in the last century), let me give you some free advice. If you're looking at this and wondering when to get in, to bargain hunt essentially, and you're asking yourself questions like "today? next week?", you need to step back and think again. Some points to consider: - If your time horizon is 10+ years out probably none of this ma…

The Nikkei is still ~50% below its 1989 high. Hasn't even approached that level since. Downturns can go on for decades.

You should really adjust for dividends, in which case it is still down, but only -7.5%. [1]

[1] https://dqydj.com/nikkei-return-calculator-dividend-reinvest... (I did Dec 1989 - Jan 2020. They don't have data latter than that)

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#470
post #459
post #315

So, children of summer (there are many here who have only known the longest bull market in the last century), let me give you some free advice. If you're looking at this and wondering when to get in, to bargain hunt essentially, and you're asking yourself questions like "today? next week?", you need to step back and think again. Some points to consider: - If your time horizon is 10+ years out probably none of this ma…

On the other hand, it's also possible that the CV will recede in the summer, and that will very likely make the markets bounce back. To quote Carl Sagan, prophecy is a lost art.

The doubling rate is 3 days. Either we will be in a 3 month long quarantine, or in three months the infection rate will be slowing because there's no one left to infect.
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