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Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

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Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current Spanish constitution was voted with more than 90% of support in Catalonia. Should that not count as self-determination?

The current Spanish constitution was drafted by a process heavily dominated by members of the former Francoist regime. The Spanish people were never formally asked "What sort of constitution would you like?" They were asked "Would you like a democratic constitution or not?" And I think a lot of people voted 'yes', whether or not they liked the constitution on offer, but simply because they wanted to ensure the return…

The committee of 7 people that drafted the constitution included people from very different ideologies, for example a former member of the Franco government, a Catalan member of UCD, a Catalan nationalist, a socialist or a Catalan member of the communist party and they all agreed on the text that was voted. Were they all dominated by the Francoist regime? By that time Spain had already had democratic elections so, if that text were rejected the result would be to restart the constitutive process, not to go back to the dictatorship.

Ultimately we need to answer one question: is the current Spanish Constitution democratic or not? if it is, it does not matter how it came to be. Any changes could be done by a democratic process. If it is not, then all the Spanish citizens are affected and a whole new constitutive process is needed where all the citizens vote, not only Catalans.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#462
post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Anyone that checks out historical records will discover that there was no Inquisition in most of Europe . Also, they will discover that, after generations of increasingly vicious oppression — including conversion to Christianity at the point of a sword, kidnapping of the Moors' children, (the same genocidal practice used in the Indian School system in the US) — hundreds of thousands of Moors and Jews fled or were exp…

> Anyone that checks out historical records will discover that there was no Inquisition in most of Europe.

I don't know what the protestant countries had, or how they called it, but they were definitely doing something wrong because the casualties in Spain pale in comparison to those in Germany. It seems that the inquisition saved lifes, after all.

> hundreds of thousands of Moors and Jews fled or were expelled, and that only tens of thousands returned.

What you say is true, but you have to give the numbers: From 200k Jews living there, 100k were expelled and from those 50k returned. The conversion terms offered by the Catholic Kings allowed for quite a comfortable life in the peninsula, and you had to be a really fanatic believer not to take it. It seems, by the way, that you are talking in terms of race and not religion, which I find quite amusing.

> anyone that checks out historical records will discover that the Jewish ghettos were in fact established by Isabel and Ferdinand, the monarchs who also established the Inquisition and, a few years later, expelled the hundreds of thousands of Jewish people and Moors from their lands.

No, the Jewish ghettos were stablished by the Jewish population itself. Spinoza (whose parents were expelled) wrote about that; they were building an empire within an empire, which caused social friction and translated into popular killings or pogroms. One of the earliest tasks of Gonzalo Fernandez de Cordova was the protection of such converts from the mobs. The stablishment of the inquisition attempted to solve the problem institutionally.

> One of the few true statements in your comment is that many empires, not only the Spanish Empire, have been founded on genocide.

I didn't say nor imply that. To say that the Spanish empire is rooted in genocide, at least to the extent of the English and Belgian empire, or nazi Germany is laughable.

You speak with such harshness about the past, but you do it from the eyes of a pathologist, grounded from today's vision (which owes, by the way, a lot to the School of Salamanca and its contributions to natural law and the so called human rights) and so you have no autority, not only to judge it, but to use it as any sort of argument against the current secesionist situation.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#463

Native speaker of Castillian Spanish here. IMO the most critical sentence in this judicial order was mistranslated by GitHub, changing our understanding of the government's request and casting GitHub's response in a more negative light (if you believe information and communication tools should be free.) The original language in the last paragraph is "...para solicitar la retención del contenido y los datos relacionad…

Ok. We know you know a lot about the "Castillian Spanish" language. And maybe about a ton of other things. But it seems kind of pointless, given the note was already translated by the Spanish Guardia Civil, don't you think?

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#464
post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your point. Nobody is the majority of Spain, but certainly most regions are far away of the power Catalans have in their hands, be it because of their population (gets you more seats in the central parliament) or because of the money they manage. Every region has its own parliament and has representation in the central parliament. If you want something for your region you have to negotiate with oth…

Catalan are not fighting 1v1 some other region, they are 1 v rest. Even if every other region is less politically powerful, their sum is more powerful, and their sum benefits from extracting economic output from Catalan. Catalan cannot reasonably get a constitutional change because the rest of the regions benefit from them being part of Spain. Again, it's a one vs rest ordeal.

Welcome to reality mate. You cannot get a constitutional change if you burned your political capital decades ago. FFS, even the Basques turned their back to catalan politicians.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#465
post #390
post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes are unjust, let's try not paying taxes and see how it goes.

You can stop paying taxes to the country you live in, when you leave it.

> but six people seceeding their house is not going to be a minimally viable country for very obvious reasons.

So you can find a limit. What if Barcelona does not want to be in that new country (and they don’t)? Will the borders of that new country inside which you start counting votes include Barcelona against their will? What freedoms do people who want to stay with the "original" country get? They suddenly become the oppressed minority. How many splinters is too many?

You object to the “dictatorship” of democracy in Spain but the plan is do do the exact same at a smaller scale in the new country to a newly created minority. The reason we’ve had the longest period of peace and prosperity in Europe’s history is that the rules are as they are now and they're the best compromise. Any “improvement” you want to get for yourself comes at a major cost for everyone.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm interested in the mass psychology behind it, why Spain and their politicians think that it's a good idea to point out that the constitution of Spain and their unitarian aspects are untouchable. I can give you my point of view as a Spanish person. I am not part of the goverment by any means. Just a normal citizen living in the middle of the country. The infrastructure of catalunya (high speed trains, ports, high…

I understand that but I think that the economic objection doesn't carry much weight: I guess that Catalonya paid its own share of the infrastructure of the other regions of Spain. Same thing with Brexit: the EU benefited from having the UK in the Union (money and not only that) and viceversa. Then the UK voted to go and they go (well, maybe, the way they're handling it is so weird.) I think it ends up to what people…

Sorry but you are comparing apples to oranges. The EU is not a country, it is a club of countries. The EU doesn't and never will have the power to choose whether a member state can leave or not. That's how it is. So it is wrong to compare a region of a country seceding than comparing a country leaving the EU. Which is more similar to a country leaving NATO for example.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#467
post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm interested in the mass psychology behind it, why Spain and their politicians think that it's a good idea to point out that the constitution of Spain and their unitarian aspects are untouchable. I can give you my point of view as a Spanish person. I am not part of the goverment by any means. Just a normal citizen living in the middle of the country. The infrastructure of catalunya (high speed trains, ports, high…

Are you kidding me? The connection between madrid and barcelona came after madrid and sevilla (very logical in an economical sense). The highways are payed by us (by tolls) thanks to president Pujol and his friends (irony). Only tolls in rich regions. Our trains (renfe) lack a total need of investment for years. Catalunya gives more money to the rest of Spain than it receives, because it’s one of the economic motors…

> , Spain cannot afford losing us

Spain can afford it

By the way, all the part about dictatorship, oppression and the rest is false.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#468
post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the EU this is an internal matter, plus, most of the countries of the EU have regions with similar intentions (of secession), it would be like shooting themselves in the foot. Plus new state members of the EU have to be approved by every current member IIRC.

The EU is absolutely happy to interfere with internal matters when it suits them, to a huge degree. Look at how they have been treating Poland and its reforms of its court system. Or look at how the EU is trade sanctioning Switzerland due to a dispute over Swiss internal working regulations. The Commission is all about "European values" and how they're going to impose penalties when a country is doing something unali…

I think nationalism and its more “accepting form” patriotism so far, in history, had a net negative impact. I am reffering at relations between states.

I also think that we have a wide range of problems which cannot be solved at national level.

So why it is bad if EU wants to have less of that?

One of the initial premises of EU was to facilitate cooperation between states which were at war for lenghty periods of time. And by facilitating collaboration the making them feel more “together”.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#469
post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm interested in the mass psychology behind it, why Spain and their politicians think that it's a good idea to point out that the constitution of Spain and their unitarian aspects are untouchable. I can give you my point of view as a Spanish person. I am not part of the goverment by any means. Just a normal citizen living in the middle of the country. The infrastructure of catalunya (high speed trains, ports, high…

Are you kidding me? The connection between madrid and barcelona came after madrid and sevilla (very logical in an economical sense). The highways are payed by us (by tolls) thanks to president Pujol and his friends (irony). Only tolls in rich regions. Our trains (renfe) lack a total need of investment for years. Catalunya gives more money to the rest of Spain than it receives, because it’s one of the economic motors…

How does Spain oppress people who speak another language exactly? I thought it was totally legal to speak catalan everywhere in catalunya including schools. Am I missing something?

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#470
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is absolutely happy to interfere with internal matters when it suits them, to a huge degree. Look at how they have been treating Poland and its reforms of its court system. Or look at how the EU is trade sanctioning Switzerland due to a dispute over Swiss internal working regulations. The Commission is all about "European values" and how they're going to impose penalties when a country is doing something unali…

>Or look at how the EU is trade sanctioning Switzerland due to a dispute over Swiss internal working regulations. The Swiss aren't in the EU.

I know. That's my point. The EU very much much wants them to be and had imposed trade sanctions on its financial sector as part of applying pressure during a treaty "renegotiation".
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