Richard M. Stallman resigns • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#461

Post by dexen » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 9:30 AM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #455

dexen wrote: post #447

Just as much as RMS was right[1], ESR was right[2]. The "cancel culture" is harming the free software movement by practicing human version of Microsoft's EEE[3]. The cancel culture enters the community, establishes interests groups, and starts knocking down prominent contributors. The demands are backed by angry crowds on social media rather than by contributions. It's time for us to defend each other, and to hold co…

RMS's defences of unacceptable behaviour are also a contribution. They're a negative contribution, and they contribute to driving away other contributors. Linus eventually realised that his abuse of contributors was a negative contribution and agreed to change. RMS has .. not got to that point.

>RMS's defences of unacceptable behaviour are also a contribution.

I've seen the accusations against RMS. I've seen the RMS emails in the thread[1].

RMS' emails bemoan wishy-washy reporting, and are centered around calls for clarity and precision. With some insensitive words.

In response we got even more wishy-washy reporting - weasel words were used, misleading summaries instead of quotations[2], and focus was placed on how people felt outraged. People who weren't part of the discussion.

This isn't the way to build great software. This is tribes warring on social media.

>They're a negative contribution, and they contribute to driving away other contributors

Riddle me this: which drives away contributors - private email threads, or social media wars of attrition?

Is my judgement right? Maybe I am missing something big, that happens. Nonetheless I decide to side with somebody I've seen reliably exhibit the same character over decades, rather than with out-of-character accusations. I decide to side with somebody who delivered great projects[3] over decades - rather than with a social media conflict.

--

[1] https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-091320191420...

[2] https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/d5a4dz/richard_stall...

[3] notably RMS delivered not only software projects, but also organizational/legal projects, and social/cultural projects

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#462

Post by dexen » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 9:32 AM UTC

scalanewaccount wrote: post #452

dexen wrote: post #447

Just as much as RMS was right[1], ESR was right[2]. The "cancel culture" is harming the free software movement by practicing human version of Microsoft's EEE[3]. The cancel culture enters the community, establishes interests groups, and starts knocking down prominent contributors. The demands are backed by angry crowds on social media rather than by contributions. It's time for us to defend each other, and to hold co…

How on earth did you manager to fit Microsoft into this? Also, this outrage culture is exactly what everyone here including you practices as long as Trump is the guy on the other side. No proofs, no actual statements, just CNN soundbytes and orange man bad, impich nao. Remember you reap what you sow.

>How on earth did you manager to fit Microsoft into this

Good point. I intended it merely as emphasis to the Embrace, Extend, Extinguish point, but apparently it ended up being more of a red herring...? I'll take extra care the next time.

>Also, this outrage culture is exactly what everyone here including you

Don't worry, this forum isn't entirely a single-minded and single-channel tribe. Albeit let's not detract further with risky subjects, shall we? :-)

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#463

Post by bigbugbag » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 9:34 AM UTC

jimrandomh wrote: post #36

nemothekid wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the counter argument for what Stallman wrote? I've seen that the "press is going too hard on him", but, honestly, I think they were justified. What is the "big difference" to you? If someone, personally, said to me that that someone be absolved of a crime, because the other, coerced, party was "willing" at that moment, I'd seriously question their morals.

Stallman wrote: "We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates." Here's the Vice headline ( https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-sci... ): Famed Computer Scientist Richard Stallman Described Epst…

Not trying to defend them for not doing journlism and being unable to understand a simple sentence but these 'news' outlet just copied what had been written in the medium publication calling for the removal of Stallman[1]:

"…and then he says that an enslaved child could, somehow, be “entirely willing”. Let’s also note that he called a group of child sex trafficking victims a ‘harem’, a terrible word choice."

[1]: https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21...

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#464

Post by syshum » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 9:36 AM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #455

dexen wrote: post #447

Just as much as RMS was right[1], ESR was right[2]. The "cancel culture" is harming the free software movement by practicing human version of Microsoft's EEE[3]. The cancel culture enters the community, establishes interests groups, and starts knocking down prominent contributors. The demands are backed by angry crowds on social media rather than by contributions. It's time for us to defend each other, and to hold co…

RMS's defences of unacceptable behaviour are also a contribution. They're a negative contribution, and they contribute to driving away other contributors. Linus eventually realised that his abuse of contributors was a negative contribution and agreed to change. RMS has .. not got to that point.

These extreme authoritarians are also driving away contributors as well. Currently I refuse to participate, donate, or contribute to any project that supports these authoritarians

Linus bent the knee to identitarian extremism. RMS did not and the FSF forced him out so they could bend the knee to identitarian extremism. If Linus had not bent the knee then the Linux Foundation would have forced him out.

Open Source and Free Software is being attacked on 2 fronts

Corporatism that is taking over and promoting "Open Source" Libraries and Licenses that are very restrictive to User Freedom

The Authoritarian / identitarian left that want to cancel any programmer, dev, or person in software development that does non conform to identitarian Political agenda

I came in to Free Software because it was a libertarian movement, now everyone is trying to drive out all the libertarians and it will kill the movement. Free Software and authoritarianism are not compatible

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#465

Post by DoreenMichele » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 9:38 AM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #455

dexen wrote: post #447

Just as much as RMS was right[1], ESR was right[2]. The "cancel culture" is harming the free software movement by practicing human version of Microsoft's EEE[3]. The cancel culture enters the community, establishes interests groups, and starts knocking down prominent contributors. The demands are backed by angry crowds on social media rather than by contributions. It's time for us to defend each other, and to hold co…

RMS's defences of unacceptable behaviour are also a contribution. They're a negative contribution, and they contribute to driving away other contributors. Linus eventually realised that his abuse of contributors was a negative contribution and agreed to change. RMS has .. not got to that point.

Linus eventually realised that his abuse of contributors was a negative contribution and agreed to change. RMS has .. not got to that point.

Neither of them seems hugely socially savvy. Perhaps someone/something helped Linus get there and RMS hasn't had a similar experience.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#466

Post by syshum » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 9:46 AM UTC

nikdaheratik wrote: post #173

naringas wrote: post #114

it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. Having the wrong opinion about certain topics is getting more expensive. Stay away from taboos or else... never mind the fact that what we regard as wrong changes across different societies over time. Weirdly all the informa…

I think that it has next to nothing to do with technology. MIT was still reeling from the fall out with the Media Lab and Epstein. If it wasn't for that, they might have gotten by with a simple apology, but that wouldn't be enough at this point. There is also a history of controversial stuff related to his time at the FSF which meant that probably wouldn't settle for a simple apology either (not that RMS seemed willi…

the FSF is a Ideological organization, how can you say " they didn't need an ideologue" when that is EXACTLY what they need

FSF entire purpose is to push for the adoption of Free Software licensing (in opposition to Both "Open Source" and Commercial licensing)

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#467

Post by darkwater » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 9:48 AM UTC

naringas wrote: post #114

it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. Having the wrong opinion about certain topics is getting more expensive. Stay away from taboos or else... never mind the fact that what we regard as wrong changes across different societies over time. Weirdly all the informa…

I'm quite certain that in '50s USA there were almost no problem saying racist comments and jokes in front of a public audience, but decades later there were. And I guess people from those same '50s were complaining during this change period that they could not express their opinions freely.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#468

Post by bigbugbag » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 9:59 AM UTC

lone_haxx0r wrote: post #59

troydavis wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The full thread is public, so folks can read it for themselves: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ne8b47/two-researchers-re... Scroll down to the inline doc reader widget. Background: https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21...

On the same tabloid that blatantly lies on the headline of another article about the same issue? https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-sci...

Yes, and the leak is from the author who first made the public call to remove Stallman while stating that she has no idea who he is.

https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21...

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#469

Post by bigbugbag » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:03 AM UTC

robocat wrote: post #168

dlp211 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because RMS isn't just another socially awkward engineer. He is a leader and a part of a larger community and is therefore held to a higher standard. The reason for the higher standard is simple, leaders are entrusted with power and need to wield that power better than others. RMS has failed that test today.

> He is a leader and a part of a larger community and is therefore held to a higher standard. I see plenty of political and tech leaders set extremely low moral standards. Why is RMS being used to set an example? Do you think RMS actually hurt any children? His comments are tragically inept - but this seems to boil down to being targeted by breaking headlines such as the New York Post: "MIT scientist says Epstein vic…

RMS is being used because of cluelessness of the person who called for his removal:

"This was not, actually, all that much about Richard Stallman. Stallman was just the last straw. This was really about all the times I have heard about a classmate’s advisor crushing her dreams, about Seth Lloyd mocking female students, the number of women alumni that were too jaded to feel surprised by this revelation, the story I read from a 1987 alumn about the trauma she experienced at the MIT and the world of that era. This was really about everything that has come out before and after the Epstein revelations, before and after Richard Stallman’s emails.

Did I even really know who Richard Stallman was before those emails? To be honest, not really — I’m a mechanical engineer who didn’t pay enough attention, apparently."

https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21...

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#470

Post by bigbugbag » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:11 AM UTC

accntwithnoname wrote: post #178

robocat wrote: post #120

Why does this feel like such a witch hunt? It is clear RMS was stunningly clueless to write anything about this, but surely we all know of similar engineers that would make a similar error? If everyone were held up to the same moral standard, we wouldn't have many people left in power! Just to be clear: I'm definitely not supporting hurting children (directly or indirectly) - I hope I'm not falling into the same tar…

This wasn't a witch hunt. This should have happened a long time ago. He is a creep, and has been problematic for years. “He literally used to have a mattress on the floor of his office. He kept the door to his office open, to proudly showcase that mattress and all the implications that went with it. Many female students avoided the corridor with his office for that reason…I was one of the course 6 undergrads who avoi…

If you read the medium post the author admits she had no idea who Stallman is and that it was not really about him, and instead of admitting she was wrong on several point she went on and digged some stuff and put them together trying to paint RMS in a way that fit her accusation and her call for his removal.

Coming from someone who admits to have written out of anger accumulated from different personal experience, admitting she iss after someone she had no idea who he is, who misrepresented what was said to fit her views and narrative, I would not give much credit to anything that was added afterwards in this appendix.