In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs • Hacker News Board

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#461

Post by therealx » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 2:56 AM UTC

blackflame7000 wrote: post #434

Spivak wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m extremely against confinement as a punishment but I don’t think this would be unreasonable so long as it was strictly limited to the time needed to detox and you could say with a clear conscience that it was for the addicts benefit. Like they have to leave with an escort but they can hit up Mcdonalds and Yankee candle for their room.

Yea I think the best way is to first heavily restrict their freedom until they normalize and then have an incentives-based system that rewards positive behavior and actions with more freedoms until they can return to a normal life. Unfortunately, drug addiction is always the product of something deeper that's causing self-medication. Personally, I think a lot of addiction is due to a lack of connection with others an…

This feel ill informed. First off, to an addict, nothing is a better positive rewarder than drugs. Secondly, forcing someone to "kick" never works and in fact leads to people trying to use the same amount and overdosing.

I do think mental health services are whats needed.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#462

Post by Clubber » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 2:57 AM UTC

kenoyer130 wrote: post #286

rayiner wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm anti-incarceration for moral reasons, but it's not clear to me that there is a definitive consensus that incarceration does not work. See: https://www.nber.org/digest/jan02/w8489.html > "Annual expenditures of approximately $10 billion on drug incarceration almost pay for themselves through reductions in health care costs and lost productivity attributable to illegal drug use, even ignoring any crime reductions a…

Freakonomics makes a case the drop in crime is directly correlated with the passing of Roe VS Wade and the legalization of abortion. This led to the 18 year later drop in unwanted male children now adults. Very interesting read on a very explosive topic :)

IIRC, that was just one of the potential factors. Another was the phasing out of lead gasoline. The arc of crime is fascinating though. I was in high school during t.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#463

Post by rdtwo » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 3:00 AM UTC

wbronitsky wrote: post #422

rdtwo wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Seattle if those were performed by a drug user they wouldn’t be.

This implies that you have data around if drug users and non-drug users who commit crimes are punished differently, or that you are just flippantly responding to a well thought out comment. In the spirit of HN, I'll assume it is the former. Can you show that data?

Certain methods of punishment don’t work for people with no assets. So if the city might fine someone with money a couple hundred bucks for urinating on a public building, the city won’t bother with a destitute addict as it’s not going to gain them money and might embarrass government officials. Here is a similar example https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2018/03/05/25878343/when-a-...

If I park illegally and get towed well tough shit, if van dweller gets towed the city has violated their rights and it’s terrible. So homeless druggies get free pass to commit all sorts of low level offenses that everyone else gets crazy fines for.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#464

Post by therealx » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 3:07 AM UTC

mkl wrote: post #438

rayiner wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm anti-incarceration for moral reasons, but it's not clear to me that there is a definitive consensus that incarceration does not work. See: https://www.nber.org/digest/jan02/w8489.html > "Annual expenditures of approximately $10 billion on drug incarceration almost pay for themselves through reductions in health care costs and lost productivity attributable to illegal drug use, even ignoring any crime reductions a…

> "Annual expenditures of approximately $10 billion on drug incarceration almost pay for themselves through reductions in health care costs and lost productivity attributable to illegal drug use I'm not sure I understand that. Surely people in prison are even less productive? Or is this counting the massively underpaid prison labour that sometimes happens in the US?

You're right, but I think they meant they spent that much less on hospital/public health spending.

A huge amount of drug users are very productive and go to work every day, but when they get caught up in the legal system they may lose their job.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#465

Post by hdfbdtbcdg » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 3:15 AM UTC

stefan_ wrote: post #302

rayiner wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting people always point to Portugal to support the idea that decriminalization is the way to address substance abuse. But compare Sweden, which has similar levels of drug dependency to Portugal, but takes a "zero tolerance" approach to drug use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Sweden . While Sweden does include treatment as part of its drug policy, that is a complement to, not replacement fo…

So they throw people in jail and end up having the same outcomes as Portugal that doesn't? Gee, you are making it very difficult to choose which policy I prefer!

I seriously doubt the Swedes 'throw people in jail'. Their social policy in general is very much the other way. Their prison sentances will be 10-30% as long as US ones for comparable offences.

In terms of drugs Norway and Sweden have traditionally not had much drugs - mainly because they are a long way from anywhere.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#466

Post by diogenescynic » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 3:25 AM UTC

San Francisco beat them to it. People openly shoot up heroin and and smoke meth and nothing happens. I see the same people often right in front of BART escalators selling drugs. It’s created a situation where cops claim crime is going down because the numbers are going down, but that’s because they just ignore the problem and don’t report what’s going on. California legalized hard drugs with Prop 57 and Prop 47 allows people to sell $1000 a day and it’s just a citation. So now there are multiple blocks where tweakers and junkies are selling stole luggage from breaking into rental cars and robbing tourists... Welcome to hell. Cops only give speeding tickets and enforce laws against normal folks. San Francisco is a miserable place for normal folks.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#467

Post by diogenescynic » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 3:36 AM UTC

autokad wrote: post #191

just_lurkin wrote: post #17

The reporters designation of "figured out" seems to stem more from the fact that the solution fits his own view than any actual real evidence. There is mention of the difficulties such lax policies has brought to the city, but they are waved away as being "growing pains" toward a new utopia. I can't say, living here, that I feel that the problem is solved. I view the needles outside my apartment as evidence to the co…

I see people shooting up in public places, people walking around naked, doing wheelies on a wheelchair on high traffic roads, drug needles laying on the side walk, etc. I think enforcing these laws would make Seattle safer and an overall better place to live.

I thought you were describing San Francisco.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#468

Post by diogenescynic » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 3:39 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #456

just_lurkin wrote: post #17

The reporters designation of "figured out" seems to stem more from the fact that the solution fits his own view than any actual real evidence. There is mention of the difficulties such lax policies has brought to the city, but they are waved away as being "growing pains" toward a new utopia. I can't say, living here, that I feel that the problem is solved. I view the needles outside my apartment as evidence to the co…

Junkies tend to be people with overwhelming problems who can't make their lives work. Throwing people in jail is usually not a means to make their lives suddenly start working. I think you solve problems like widespread drug use by repairing the tattered social fabric that of this country which has taken such a toll on so many of the people who live here.

What about not ruining everyone else’s lives and the public health issues these people create? Not a fan of conservative ideology, but surely there is some level of personal responsibility and accountability they have towards the public? And when they betray that buy shitting on public areas or leaving needles near playgrounds, I think it’s not only reasonable but necessary to incarcerate them—for their own good and the public’s.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#469

Post by diogenescynic » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 3:41 AM UTC

psychometry wrote: post #19

just_lurkin wrote: post #17

The reporters designation of "figured out" seems to stem more from the fact that the solution fits his own view than any actual real evidence. There is mention of the difficulties such lax policies has brought to the city, but they are waved away as being "growing pains" toward a new utopia. I can't say, living here, that I feel that the problem is solved. I view the needles outside my apartment as evidence to the co…

Supervised consumption sites would go a long way toward fixing the needle problem.

No it wouldn’t. They wouldn’t use them. Junkies reuse needles they find on the ground because they don’t care... they aren’t going to go to a specific place to wait in line to shoot up.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#470

Post by DoreenMichele » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 3:43 AM UTC

diogenescynic wrote: post #468

DoreenMichele wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Junkies tend to be people with overwhelming problems who can't make their lives work. Throwing people in jail is usually not a means to make their lives suddenly start working. I think you solve problems like widespread drug use by repairing the tattered social fabric that of this country which has taken such a toll on so many of the people who live here.

What about not ruining everyone else’s lives and the public health issues these people create? Not a fan of conservative ideology, but surely there is some level of personal responsibility and accountability they have towards the public? And when they betray that buy shitting on public areas or leaving needles near playgrounds, I think it’s not only reasonable but necessary to incarcerate them—for their own good and…

Lack of adequate housing supply is a contributing factor to homelessness. If you are just throwing people in jail and not addressing issues of that ilk, it rapidly becomes unsustainable.

Criminals in jail are a burden on society. Functional, productive, tax paying citizens are assets to society. Rehabilitation is not charity. It's enlightened self interest.

I'm not advocating for kind of bleeding heart "charity" here.