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Women: Learn to Program This Summer

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Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#461

Post by Grustaf »

epicureanideal wrote: post #447
Grustaf wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors are not socially awkward, it’s much more fun for a normal person to hang out with medical students than with programmers. Who could possibly feel welcome in an industry filled with awkward, mostly introverted geeks?

The "awkward" stereotype does not describe most software engineers I've encountered in my career. Even "introverted" only applies to somewhat more than the average percentage in the rest of society, in my experience.

I don’t know where you work but I’ve worked with close to a dozen software teams and in all cases the vast majority of coders have been very awkward. The contrast with other fields I’ve worked in, such as business or finance is sharp.

Maybe it’s different in other countries but i doubt it, based on conferences I’ve attended.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#462

Post by School-Cotton »

sergiotapia wrote: post #240
rosterface wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without doxing myself... It’s not apparently obvious what ethnicity I am based on looks. I had already been told there was a focus on diversity at the company I ended up getting an offer at and they “really want to build a diverse team from the ground up”. The conversation had been dragging for months and I resisted bringing up my background out of principle. I saw the hiring manager tweeting about a Latinx conferenc…

Asquerosa la situacion, pero entiendo porque lo hiciste. Latinx es un termino gringo que me hace cagar de riza lol. Por el culo, somos Latinos y Latinas. No LaTiNX.

The preferred term is "gringx", please...

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#463

Post by Grustaf »

UncleMeat wrote: post #425
Grustaf wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely the reason is obvious, as it pervades all of society. Women are, generally speaking, more interested in people than men are, and men are more interested in things. Yes there is a big overlap, and yes there are plenty of exceptions, but the trend is very clear. And yes it is present from birth, so it can’t be just society.

> Surely the reason is obvious Most human behavior is not obvious on close inspection. And when what seems "obvious" happens to align with traditional expectations of historically oppressed groups we should be very very skeptical of our personal gut feelings.

It’s not just a gut feeling though, there is plenty of scientific evidence. And given our evolutionary history and the fact that women give birth, it shouldn’t come as a surprise that women are more interested in people.

I really don’t see the point in denying this, it certainly doesn’t benefit women. Most women probably wouldn’t like to be men.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#464

Post by jrs95 »

rhcom2 wrote: post #82
nck4222 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because women as a group have been disadvantaged, doesn't mean the women receiving this particular advantage deserve it more than other women, or other men. There's nothing in this release saying they want to offer this to disadvantaged women, they simply want to offer it to women.

> they simply want to offer it to women. But you've said they have been disadvantaged as a group, so they are offering it to a disadvantaged group. I think you're saying they should be disadvantaged in a way besides their gender?

There is a difference between a disadvantaged person and a disadvantaged group. In my opinion that is the primary issue with prioritizing the needs of disadvantaged groups over the needs of disadvantaged individuals.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#465

Post by malvosenior »

fzeroracer wrote: post #419
malvosenior wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You either accept that people can choose their own gender or you don't. People don't get to police the reason someone may identify as female or male. History on social media should have nothing to do with it. Do you think everyone makes this choice at an early age and broadcasts it publicly?

It's weird that you bring this up in a comment thread about someone literally advocating for lying about their gender for the sake of some perceived competitive advantage. Do you believe this to be ethical? Because to me I find it rather offensive considering it harms actual transgender candidates.

I wouldn’t judge someone for changing their gender for economic purposes. It’s a personal decision and a slippery slope to decide when it’s ok and when it’s not ok.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#466

Post by jrs95 »

hnxs wrote: post #438
jschwartzi wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain a little more what you mean by this or where the disagreement is? I'm not sure what you're getting at. Thanks!

If you ever make it out to the bay, you’ll see that white men, Asian men, and, to a much lesser extent (though much more represented than everyone other than the first two), Asian women make up the majority of the engineering workforce here.

This is even the case in the midwest

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#467

Post by renholder »

leereeves wrote: post #403

I honestly do think this is a good idea. She saw a need, identified a way to help, and is generously contributing. And if some women feel more comfortable or learn better in a boot camp for women only, I wish them the best. And yet it makes me and many others angry, not for what it is, but because of the social context in which it occurs. There's an all too common attitude these days that success for white people, me…

>That cruelty toward men is acceptable.

To be fair, in more socially progressive countries, this is actually being countered/fought against[0].

The article linked is in Swedish, so you can use your choice of translator to decypher the text; but this is a demonstration of not only your point but the fact that people are actually starting to take a stand against the narrative that cruelty towards men is anywhere near being acceptable, in an equal and just society.

[0] - https://www.metro.se/artikel/anna-bj%C3%B6rklund-dumpa-inte-...

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#468

Post by 0xfeeddeadbeef »

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #454
0xfeeddeadbeef wrote: post #435

I am a cisgender white male. I never wanted to be a programmer — I was forced into it by my mother, aunt and grandmother. They also provided me with tuition money. I will sue them for oppressing me and also making it harder for women to pursue their dreams. Edit: Downvoting into oblivion, as expected. Cue the western woman — the most oppressed life form on the planet Earth.

I suspect you're being downvoted because of how you're presenting your idea, not because of whatever particular point you're making.

Joking about very important 'grievances' is worse than a physical assault.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#469

Post by jrs95 »

ajross wrote: post #251
DBYCZ wrote: post #246

Anyone who argues that there should be "More women in tech" needs to go visit a medical college. Completely filled with super smart women interested in science. If STEM women found Coding as interesting as they did Medicine (which is arguably more competitive and prestigious), we wouldn't have any shortage of women writing code. There is nothing wrong with either way, just let people do what they like to do.

What's the evidence that women aren't coding because they aren't "interested"? If you want to make that argument, don't you need to go and refute all the anecdotal evidence that women aren't entering tech careers because they don't feel welcome? I cite as evidence the fact that women in med schools have not, in fact, always been well represented and that the same kind of rhetoric about their "interests" was used to e…

Personally I think an even bigger factor than not feeling welcome, if we're talking about getting people in the door in the first place, is the negative connotations associated with being in this industry to begin with. As far as social status goes, it's probably below average. Men who work in tech have a pretty negative stereotype. But because we're men, we can't even explore the possibility that this could have an impact because the immediate outrage and accusations of sexism it would cause.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#470

Post by jrs95 »

camelNotation wrote: post #271
ajross wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the evidence that women aren't coding because they aren't "interested"? If you want to make that argument, don't you need to go and refute all the anecdotal evidence that women aren't entering tech careers because they don't feel welcome? I cite as evidence the fact that women in med schools have not, in fact, always been well represented and that the same kind of rhetoric about their "interests" was used to e…

It blows my mind that so many people are still unaware of the gender equality paradox. People constantly bring this up, constantly ask that same question, constantly get the same response. Women self-select into certain fields at higher rates than others, men do the exact same thing. Can we move on now? There is no problem to solve.

Well the people that profit from this kind of narrative haven't gotten enough corporate influence and money from beating us over the head with it yet so it has to continue.
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