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Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

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Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#461
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, all of that goes over Comcast’s network because that’s my only viable choice for Internet service. An antitrust breakup of Comcast would be one or both of: 1. splitting off different lines of business, such as the content production parts from the physical cable service part, or 2. splitting them into different companies geographically. Neither of these would do much to increase your ISP options.

> Neither of these would do much to increase your ISP options. The first one works if you do it properly. One of the lines of business just operates the physical infrastructure. It not only doesn't provide video service, it doesn't even provide internet service -- the end user is never their customer, their only customers are third party ISPs, who all get the same terms.

There is no "proper" way to do this. The U.K. does what you're describing, and U.S. broadband speeds blow away U.K. broadband speeds: https://www.speedtest.net/reports/united-kingdom/#fixed (UK); https://www.speedtest.net/reports/united-states/2018/fixed/ (US).

The physical infrastructure is what makes everything on top of it possible, and at the same time it is one of the most expensive pieces to build, upgrade, and maintain. There needs to be adequate returns on investment in the infrastructure, and that's hard to do in the unbundled model.

If you want high-quality infrastructure, you need to let the infrastructure builder capture a sufficient portion of the value created by that infrastructure. Consider trains. Trains create value for people using the train to get around, but also value for the real estate by the train station. If you only let the train company recover from the rider, you won't incentives that reflect the true value of investing in the train.

Look at Japan, where train service is exceptional. The train company gets to charge both sides. They charge fares to riders, but also are major land owners around train stations, and charge rent to the businesses who benefit from having train service near them. If you had your model in Japan, where train companies just own the tracks and get a modest fee for allowing people to use them, you would not see that kind of high-quality train service.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#462

Microsoft is now worth more than Apple, and it used to be in the target of government regulators. What has it done right?

I'm not sure Apple can claim a monopoly the same way those other three can. How would you "break up" Apple when their business is largely focused to one market that has strong competition?

Unless I'm crazy, or HN is messing up, GP completely changed message so this makes no sense now. It used to say something about Apple hiring Al Gore to buy off democrats, and that Google, Amazon, and Facebook should be doing the same.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#463

> The key components of the Warren plan include passing legislation that would designate companies with annual global revenue above $25 billion that provide marketplace, exchange, or third-party connectivity as “platform utilities” and prohibit those companies from owning participants on their platforms. As a Googler, speaking for myself, this seems like an interesting idea that could positively impact the tech scene…

Why the $25 billion restriction, I wonder? Is it just to make this more of a "bill of attainder" aimed at the specific companies in question, or there some principled reasoning behind it?

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe net neutrality is a regulatory capture move, and gives Google and Netflix a stranglehold over the industry: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19316513 Marketing to the contrary, I believe there are good, strong justifications for against net neutrality, as a consumer and someone excited about the future of technology. Additionally, and far more importantly: Comcast is a regional monopoly. They have a lot…

How so? If I don't like my internet provider, my only other option is dialup. If I don't like Google, there's multiple alternatives for all of their services that I use

While you can place your data in services which are not Google, if you want to consume data, you are often going to have to deal with Google. For instance, almost anyone who shares any sort of video whatsoever puts it on YouTube. It doesn't matter if I'm not a YouTube user, I have to go to YouTube if I want to watch someone else's videos.

And Google is far more than just where you go to search or store your email. Somewhere around 90% of the web uses Google Analytics, Google Ads, or Google Fonts, so they can track you regardless of where you go online. And that's before you get into the fact that plenty of websites are on Google's cloud services, which you may not even know. (I left Google Docs for another service, for instance, but it's still hosted on Google's servers.) Even if you're not logged into a Google account, Google is tracking you and profiling your behavior across the web. (Google also collects credit card data, so they can track you in brick and mortar stores now too.)

Using Google's browser to access the web is also becoming increasingly inescapable, now that the company with the second largest market share in web browsers is switching to Chrome's codebase. Firefox is nearly the last remaining holdout against Chromium. In fact, the very protocol we use to talk to the web is constantly being revised primarily on Google's lead and direction. HTTP/3, QUIC, DNS-over-HTTPS, etc. is all about moving the web's standard to something more palatable to Google's business models, and making them harder to block or filter out.

It's incredibly naive to believe you can escape Google. I've spent years de-Googling, and there's plenty of data Google still has on me.

ISP monopolies are a big problem, but they won't follow you when you move. A high bar for escape, to be sure, but escaping Google likely requires an even higher bar: Entering the witness protection program and getting a new identity.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be great. Android has a competition-destroying business model: giving away the OS for free, while subsidizing OS development with ad revenue from unrelated services. It killed companies like Symbian who just sold you an OS in exchange for a license fee, without trying to marry that to services you can't easily switch away from because they have all your data.

So basically big companies will no longer have any reason to work on open source projects anymore if they can't fund them with "unrelated services?" You can head over to github, clone the AOSP tree, and do whatever the heck you want with it. Separately, Google has developed the Play ecosystem, and several of its own apps for Android. If you want you phone to have that stuff, you tell Google and you join the Open Hand…

Possibly true. But the direct exchange of money for a product or service creates a salutory incentive structure. And unfortunately, the rise of open source has been associated with the rise of indirect monetization models that aren't as beneficial, especially in the consumer space.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#467
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We also broke up Ma Bell back in 84 and it looks like they are on their way to fully reuniting as an even larger monopoly. https://i.imgur.com/rMFqmbt.jpg https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/03/att-time-warner...

Ma Bell wasn't created naturally at all. It's monopoly status was granted by the federal government. This is fundamentally different from Facebook, Amazon, etc. If anything, the large ISPs like ATT, Verizon, and Spectrum should be looked at, but solving the problems of ISP monopolization will take a lot more than just breaking up territorial monopolies into smaller territorial monopolies.

Why does it matter whether a monopoly is "natural" or not, let alone that the definition of "naturally" is sort of laughable given the legal framework put in place for our government is the economy in the first place? Just as you get a lot of government run monopolies with pure socialism, you get a lot of "market-driven" monopolies with pure capitalism. Both should be broken up.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the perceived risks of breaking up the tech giants is that they will be at a competitive disadvantage to their foreign peers. The degree of competitive risk at the time of Boeing's split was perceived as lower. As long as Americans are ok with losing some areas of advantages, they should move forward.

There are other regulatory tools to level the playing field with foreign companies.

Dems/libs are fools when it comes to this. They never have the backbone to take on foreign Govts. I'm totally against this because we are in a globalized world and these companies need to be large and strong to out-compete with others across the world.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#469
post #401

I ran across two quotes by Warren that caught my attention: > "unwind tech mergers that illegally undermine competition" > "I want a government that makes sure everybody — even the biggest and most powerful companies in America — plays by the rules" The word "illegally" in the first quote really set off my alarm bells. What have large companies like Amazon, Google, FB, etc. done that is considered illegal in this reg…

> "illegal" because Amazon uses their non-retail business profits to identify high selling items, produce them themselves, sell them at a lower price (because they have all the data also), and finally steer customers to those products. They're the market place and a player. This new idea isn't well defined in law, but using your profits from one company to undercut another area is illegal. > "by the rules" is the sam…

> and finally steer customers to those products

Do you have data that shows this actually happens?

Everything else you stated before this part is a win for consumers in my mind. More competitors is generally a good thing.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you're putting words in my mouth, or misunderstanding my point. > you think Comcast should be broken up I think efforts to break up tech monopolies should first be focused on telecommunication companies. > because they lobby for things you don't like, Not just me, but are objectively harmful to 99% of the people they would affect > but FAANG is fine because they lobby for things you do. I'm mostly focusing on Goo…

> With Comcast (and other ISPs), you have only one choice, and they spend tons of money and effort making sure you only have that one choice, and continue to have only that one choice. Comcast recently spent nearly $1M to prevent Fort Collins from creating a municipal ISP[1]. That is actively anti-competitive and monopolistic by definition. I'm sure if the U.S. government was proposing to sell public bonds to build a…

Search engine and ride-sharing don't seem to be natural monopolies however. Communication infrastructure in most part of the USA clearly is.

Still I agree breaking up Comcast is not the solution. You will just end up with smaller more localized monopolies. That's pretty much what happened with Bell after all.

The solution would be either nationalizing the infrastructure and leasing it to operators or forcing existing operators to rent their infrastructure to their competitors for a set price. The later is actually working quite well in France. Short of that you will never get competition. It's simply not profitable.

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